|
Recall
Feb 2, 2005 6:25:13 GMT -5
Post by canton1 on Feb 2, 2005 6:25:13 GMT -5
Who can recall Rescue?
Who can recall BLS?
Who can cancel ALS?
Who can cancel Airomedical?
Now---explain why that person should be the only one to have that ability!
Why should someone not be able to recall one of them?
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 2, 2005 12:42:19 GMT -5
Post by EngTrk on Feb 2, 2005 12:42:19 GMT -5
- - Fire chief or the rescue it's self. - - No one - - BLS Ems and fire only per ems.
Fire shouldn't be cancled by ems and vis versa.
BLS should be able to cancel ALS if they are not needed.
Airomedical that should be left to the discretion of EMS cause they are the ones that truly know what the patient needs.
I would not feel right canceling ems if the patient had not had a proper evaluation stating that they are ok and that they signed off on needing further care. No offence to ems but I would rather let them make that call. It happens to many times when fire cancels the helo and ems is wating for them to just find out that they are not coming and to request them. It make us look like the bad guys.
This is just my opinion. Stay safe.
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 2, 2005 16:12:39 GMT -5
Post by 911wacker on Feb 2, 2005 16:12:39 GMT -5
It all depends on where you are and who you are running with, for example: an ALS unit cancels a BLS unit and they decide thet they are still needed anyway. This is due to the fact they they think ALS is trying to "take them over". If this were the case, it would have happened a LONG time ago.
As far as cancelling rescue, any unit that arrives on scene and determines there is no entrapment or hazard that requires rescue (cribbing, etc), it should be cancelled.
Cancelling Aeromedical should only be done under the authority of a medical person, whether it be FR, EMT or MEDIC. Once the patient has been assessed and determined that a Flight is not needed.
Anyone (fire department, police) can under current protocol cancel all levels of EMS if they arrive on the scene and nothing is found or a minor MVA where a patient did not request EMS themselves and have denied injury (example: car into a ditch during snow covered roadway, no or minor damage/dent to vehicle). Thus returning these Valauble resources to service for the next run.
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 2, 2005 23:55:14 GMT -5
Post by canton1 on Feb 2, 2005 23:55:14 GMT -5
As far as cancelling rescue, any unit that arrives on scene and determines there is no entrapment or hazard that requires rescue (cribbing, etc), it should be cancelled. Why should you cancel a rescue that fast. I think most rescues have equipment to assist with packaging Pt. for transport. What if something changes like a Pt. gets back in the car and has problems and now you haver to remove the roof or something. How is a EMT that has not training in rescue know enough to recall a rescue. It was a LITTLE better when rescue was part of the EMT course. If anyone under protocol can recall why is that it is being a big deal whemn it happens!!!!!
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 3, 2005 7:37:27 GMT -5
Post by Medic13 on Feb 3, 2005 7:37:27 GMT -5
---Why should you cancel a rescue that fast. I think most rescues have equipment to assist with packaging Pt. for transport. What if something changes like a Pt. gets back in the car and has problems and now you haver to remove the roof or something. How is a EMT that has not training in rescue know enough to recall a rescue. It was a LITTLE better when rescue was part of the EMT course. If anyone under protocol can recall why is that it is being a big deal whemn it happens!!!!!---
Like I stated in the other thread, the actual act of EMS cancelling rescue is rare. County usually does it automatically when no entrapment is declared. Not to question someone older and wiser, but how many times has that actually been an issue? In my days, I can't think if any situation when rescue was cancelled by an untrained person, then needed. And again, not to insult, but why would a rescue trained responder have a better idea as to whether or not rescue is needed, over any other trained responder? It's not the same as assessing the condition of a patient, I would think.
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 3, 2005 17:01:20 GMT -5
Post by 911wacker on Feb 3, 2005 17:01:20 GMT -5
If anyone under protocol can recall why is that it is being a big deal whemn it happens!!!!! Because to many people have BIG heads about it and who is actually in charge. Hell, half of these people are not even in control of their own bowels, let alone anything else. Just because they are with XYZ company, they think that they are important. Well, they are really no more important than the next company 5 miles down the road that can do the same job they do. Its all about lines in the sand, and not wanting anyone else to play in my sand box. If everyone could just GROW UP and learn to respect each other, we would have it made.
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 4, 2005 0:25:50 GMT -5
Post by canton1 on Feb 4, 2005 0:25:50 GMT -5
Because to many people have BIG heads about it and who is actually in charge. Hell, half of these people are not even in control of their own bowels, let alone anything else. Its all about lines in the sand, and not wanting anyone else to play in my sand box. If everyone could just GROW UP and learn to respect each other, we would have it made.OMG---Finally someone said it NOW HOW DO WE FIX IT
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 4, 2005 7:33:00 GMT -5
Post by 911wacker on Feb 4, 2005 7:33:00 GMT -5
Well Chief,
A whole lot of ego's will have to be put aside first and I don't see that happening anytime soon. You could write all the policies or SOP's you want, but if the "powers" don't enforce them - you may as well wipe your butt with them.
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 4, 2005 9:26:29 GMT -5
Post by Medic13 on Feb 4, 2005 9:26:29 GMT -5
Not to sound sarcastic, but whats your take on it, Kim? Should a FR or EMT with the fire dept be able make the decision to cancel any EMS? Can a rescue trained EMT or Medic with EMS decide if rescue is required? Although egos are typically the main culprit, shouldn't it really be up to the responding unit? The EMT with the fire dept may not think ALS or the bird are required, but what if the transporting Ambulance wants one or both to continue in? What if the rescue trained Medic doesn't think rescue is needed, but the fire dept would like it on scene for cleanup anyway? Most of all, how would any decision be enforced? Either way, it's gonna be a kick in the rocks for someone. The way I understand it now, any FR, EMT, or Medic can cancel any EMS, and anybody or their brother can cancel rescue. Correct me if I'm wrong... between protocols, opinions, and apparently a new decision recently, the "right way" gets confusing
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 4, 2005 17:47:24 GMT -5
Post by CMTMedic on Feb 4, 2005 17:47:24 GMT -5
I guess we could boil it down this way... Who is ultimately responsible on any given scene? For fire the Fire chief, for MVC's it gets a little cloudy, I believe that Fire should be the lead agency (also reflected in the MCI procedures) The other agencies work WITH the Fire agency to handle the situation. This means that if EMS or Rescue needs something they go through the incident commander (sounds like an IC class doesnt it?) Like Green, or blue, or whatever he calls himself today ;D stated if everyone works together things will work out. As for who can recall who there are several important factors to consider: The transport agency should have the final say as to what EMS resources are needed, if a fire unit feels that an agency is not needed (helo, als, ect....) then it is up to the transporting agency to make the decision. For example, if a fire chief is on scene and reports that the patient's are refusing transport and the EMS unit knows that fire chief is capable of making the decision, why can't EMS stand down the helo? An EMT that is responding with a non-QRS fire department should not have the ability to cancel units unless there is no patient to treat without consulting the transporting units. (I have had this happen before personally). As for rescue I think that nobody should cancel rescue until all patient's are out of the vehicle. If there are still patient's in the vehicle shouldn't it be cribbed? Also the extra manpower could be useful in removing a patient even if no tools are required. Once all occupants are out of the vehicle the Fire IC can cancel rescue if it is not on scene. The fire IC does reserve the right to reduce the response mode of the rescue at any time.
In a nutshell: Rescue- Cancelled by the Fire IC BLS- Unless no pt found any EMT from transporting agency ALS- Any EMT from the transporting agency Helo- Any EMT from the transporting agency (anyone see a pattern?)
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 4, 2005 17:54:28 GMT -5
Post by CMTMedic on Feb 4, 2005 17:54:28 GMT -5
By the way, great discussion keep em coming people
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 5, 2005 1:37:42 GMT -5
Post by canton1 on Feb 5, 2005 1:37:42 GMT -5
An EMT that is responding with a non-QRS fire department should not have the ability to cancel units unless there is no patient to treat without consulting the transporting units. (I have had this happen before personally). I have discussed this with you before. If they have an EMT number are they not certified in PA and "in theory" able to make a decision. How does it work legally?
|
|
Valley6
Junior Member
One of the Valley's Blue Smurfs
Posts: 14
|
Recall
Feb 5, 2005 14:02:27 GMT -5
Post by Valley6 on Feb 5, 2005 14:02:27 GMT -5
I agree with Canton 1 Why cancel them so fast? In a chase like ours the rescue is staffed with EMT's & EMT-P's and extra EQUIPMENT! From packaging to ALS gear.
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 5, 2005 18:53:07 GMT -5
Post by Medic13 on Feb 5, 2005 18:53:07 GMT -5
---Clip--- Nah, probably shouldn't say that. <erase>
|
|
|
Recall
Feb 5, 2005 20:56:08 GMT -5
Post by blueeighty8 on Feb 5, 2005 20:56:08 GMT -5
---Clip--- Nah, probably shouldn't say that. <erase> I often have that problem myself... Feel like something should be said, knowing that it will piss someone off, but that in itself makes it worth it!
|
|