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Post by PSPFIREMARSHAL on Jan 4, 2004 15:06:15 GMT -5
After the fire here in Ulster, I have given this concept some thought. The house fire on 01/01/04, I was part of the first rescue team into the second story for the search and rescue effort. The smoke was dense, there was no visibility even with the box light, but the most challenging problem was the amount of junk that hindered our progress and the amount of junk that was available for someone to get tangled in. It really wasn't a problem if the team followed the concept stay to the right or left depending on what they choose, but in those circumstances we faced I can see where a firefighter(inexperienced) could get lost or disoriented or even a trained firefighter could of easily got caught on something and got tangled. I think we have all been lucky that nothing has happened to any of our guys in this county and now in hindsight I see where this concept could do some good in this county. Granted, hopefully we would never have to use the team, but wouldn't it be nice to know you are going into a dangerous situation and if somehow you do get in trouble that there are some experienced people ready to go in a minutes notice to help you out!. Maybe it is time for us to be somewhat proactive instead of waiting for something to happen and be reactive. Just over the last year there have been firefighter deaths in pennsylvania from trapped firefighters. Just my thoughts! What do other people think?
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NT1
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Post by NT1 on Jan 4, 2004 15:32:46 GMT -5
I see Ridgebury has some good training classes coming up pertaining to this. County school is also coming up. Maybe this could be one of the classes offered as well as other task force specific areas.
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Post by chief322 on Jan 4, 2004 21:40:11 GMT -5
I did a job once while part of Dauphin County La Casa Grande 32. I was a captain at the time and we were on a job around 0230hrs in a commercial storefront w/ apartments above. The fire was on the first floor and I came in on the tower. We laddered the bldg. and began a primary above the fire. I entered from side 3 along w/ my crew. This was a smoky job and heavy fire on first floor. I put a FF at the entry window and he kept yelling into the bldg. I became separated from my crew and got "lost" in the kitchen area of the apartment. While crawling, I became caught in a little box. After the fact, that box was a kitchen island with a false back. Shit happens. If it hadn't been for the FF at the window, Lord knows what would have happened. For all the jobs I had seen, this one scared the piss out of me. It can and will happen.
I think each zone should have a RIT team on all confirmed jobs. Each "zone" should set up criteria to be a RIT qualified team. Simply taking a RIT course IMHO doesn't cut it. We should place stringient qualifications on our RIT teams and follow those to the "T".
Tim
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Post by Greg Jelliff on Jan 5, 2004 9:24:19 GMT -5
While I agree RIT training is important (or we wouldn't be hosting the class) the basics can't be forgotten. I also think the declining number of "working fires" is an issue, as younger members lack the experience necessary to make crucial decisions when they get in a "pickle".
Another valuable tool is the Thermal Imager, having used ours in a couple of working fires I can not explain how valuable it can be. Again, one can not forget the basics, more often than not that is where one gets into trouble.
Please pass on the classes we are hosting. This is the second time I have set up an RIT class. Only two people registered for the first one. We need 20 to run the class, which shouldn't be hard to get.
Greg
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NT1
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Post by NT1 on Jan 5, 2004 11:53:44 GMT -5
Tim You are right taking classes does not make a person an expert but you have to start somewhere. The classes are a start of knowledge not the end. We (I) also need to learn from the more experienced ff's. I learn something everytime we have a call and have made mistakes that hopefully won't happen again. This should go with all operations not just RIT.
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Post by 911wacker on Jan 5, 2004 17:35:39 GMT -5
Now that some people have sparked this discusion agian, let's take a CLOSER look at some of the issues that have been brought up when this type of thing was discussed. I know that this concept was talked about at one time in a region of the county and a few things surfaced. # 1 and most likely the fire service catch all of excuses, "we can handle our own, we don't need any help". I must say that I was very frustrated after hearing this, to think that some people are that arrogant and "god almighty". Every department has people that are good, and have certian aspects of the job they are especially good at doing, don't get me wrong. # 2 - Lack of "real and productive" training, when good classes are scheduled they are usually cancelled due to lack of interest. Any meat head can sit in a classroom and talk their way through a situation, but to actually have to act it out is another thing and seldom done very often. It's a proven fact that if you don't use training and practice with it, after 3-5 years you will only retain about 10% of that knowledge you once had. # 3 - This one in my opinion is the largest setback, Everyone wants to be the one thats in charge!! I would be the first one to agree with all of you that it is very much a needed thing in this area, but will we be able to overcome the hurdles and improve the cardinal rule of our own saftey?? How many fires have you been too where command established a small team of 2-3 people soley as the back-up team, committed with no other duties?? Maybe we should start taking baby steps first before we jump head first into shallow water!! ;D
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Post by 2Truck on Jan 5, 2004 22:23:38 GMT -5
A RIT TEAM SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED AT ALL WORKING FIRES! NO EXCEPTIONS! Isn't the purpose of a RIT team to protect our own if something happens? Who wants to stand around for 2 hours and watch a fire get put out and do nothing But when one of our brother firefighters transmits a mayday the crew had better be prepared to go to work. Scott you stated that a team of 2 or 3 people is needed for this, WRONG. Pheonix did a study about rescueing downed firefighters, and they found that it takes about 12 people just to rescue 1 person. That takes into account the search, the extrication, and the removal. I remember not too long ago that a mayday event occured in Towanda. Thankfully the firefighter was able to be recovered without harm. Like most downed firefighter incidents everyone wants to help, it's the nature of our mindset "you go, we go". As it should be! The first thing that needs to happen is that everyone, yes I said everyone (yes I've been guilty a few times ) needs to get some discipline and go to manpower staging and not go and freelance on the fireground. By doing so it gives better accountibility as to who is doing what on the fireground and where they are doing it. It also allows a RIT team to be created. As for equipment and training, the equipment that is needed for an event like this is most likley going to be found on a rescue or a truck (air bags, saws, hydraulic rescue tools, etc...). With that being said rigs that are going to run as a RIT support vehicle need to be equipped with the necessary equipment to support the operation. The training that is necessary to become a RIT team is phenominal. Like most other things if we don't practice what we learn on a regular basis then we will most likely lose the skill that we've learned. With that being said lets get off our butts and get some training so that we can protect our own so we can all go home when the job is done.
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Post by PSPFIREMARSHAL on Jan 5, 2004 23:05:15 GMT -5
I agree with some of the information offered. Although, I feel anyone can get in trouble no matter how many precautions you take. you could be one of the best trained firefighters with all the discipline in the world and follow prescribed guidelines, But how does this help you if you are crawling through an area and get entangled. Yes, if you think about what is happening and not panic, you could possibly work your way out of it. But anything is possible. Yes scott, I agree with you to a point, But how do you set aside 2-3 people you have on scene for a backup, when sometimes it is hard to get enough people to man your attack lines? should it be a seperate assignment for a rescue company? I also agree, I think the number one problem is that you talk to different people and they feel in our type of situation, we don't need this type of team. I guess I feel that is a lack of concern for their personnel. I wouldn't want to see something happen to any of their men, but if something did, all anyone would see is a disorganized scrambled because nothing was in place. I also agree with Jamie. I read the article Jamie is talking about and in their studies, it did take quite a few men to complete the tasks. But I also didn't like the article because I felt the author was kind of rejecting RIT because of the time involved in rescue. At least there was a team there to start a rescue! So the question of Jamie's still remains the same, How do we change the mindset for a more safe and productive environment Just my thoughts.
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Post by canton1 on Jan 6, 2004 3:45:37 GMT -5
What about getting a meeting set up and talk about it.
I know Mr. Flynn has brought this to my attention to get something done several times. One of the problems I have is that most of the time when we have a fire by the time a RIT team got there most of the interior stuff has been completed. I am in favcor of it but I am not sure how to make it happen for those of us that are so far from the next department.
I just think that it needs to have a different set up depending on where we are in the county
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Post by Skip18810 on Jan 6, 2004 9:04:24 GMT -5
So many things to do........so little time!
RIT is a difficult thing to get accomplished, especially if you are going to do it by the book. It is important item at all structure fires, but many of you have pointed out the difficulties of getting it done.
To begin with how many of us follow the 2 in 2 out rule on initial attack? That is an OSHA rule, not a RIT assignemnt. They are related but not the same.
I applaud Ridgebury for getting the training started, and I hope they have more applicants than can be handled in one class. Look at the requirments that need to be met just to take the class. How many firefighters are there in the county that meet those requirements? I'm guessing that there are not 50 people who meet that standard. We need to get our people more interested in taking this training before we can do a full RIT.
I agree with those who think we need to start small and build into RIT. Waiting for a county-wide organization to get started, be trained and figuring out how they respond sounds good, but might not happen. What will work is for each department of group of departments that work together all the time to start establishing teams at their fires.
Perhaps we need to look at staging first
They might look something like this: 1. Determine a department that can supply an engine company that can supply 4-5 green tag firefighters 2. Once on scene that crew parks their rig, gets their breathing apparatus and hand tools, and reports to the command post. The driver probably should stay near the rig. 3. They stay at or near the command post until they receive orders 4. If that crew is needed to fight the fire, another is called in to take its place 5. If this is a multiple department response, one rig can be designated for staging.
I know this is not "perfect" staging or RIT. Its only a first step, but unless we start to move, we won't go anywhere
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Post by PSPFIREMARSHAL on Jan 6, 2004 16:40:22 GMT -5
Skip, I agree 100%. That is an idea that will at least give us a start. Now I see why we keep some of the older-more experienced people around ;D. By the way, I got my state application sent in!! Thanks for the help! Bob
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Post by Firegirl on Jan 6, 2004 18:38:35 GMT -5
Just a thought to getting more people to the classes.....many people in this area (myself included) work funky swing shift schedules. I for one would love to take all of the classes that Ridgebury is offering but can't because I have to work. There have been many classes offered and I have to choose (I hate when that happens). I know you can't please everyone but just a thought as to the getting people signed up for classes.
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Post by PSPFIREMARSHAL on Jan 9, 2004 19:44:30 GMT -5
Just something to think about: Philadelphia -- A firefighter was injured in a blaze in the Logan section of Philadelphia Friday morning.
Slideshow: Firefighters Rescue Fellow Comrade
He was trapped inside the burning home. His comrades rescued him from the building, carrying him to an ambulance.
NBC 10 is told the firefighter’s injuries appear to be serious.
The home on 9th and Lindley Streets burst into flames just before dawn. Officials say the home is vacant.
It could happen anywhere Bob
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Post by chief322 on Jan 9, 2004 20:45:50 GMT -5
Jamie mentions a prefect example of where a local RIT team or even a staged backup team would have worked in Towanda Boro. A few years back, they had a house off on Chesnut street and a man went down.
I witnessed an entire fire operation shut down as "everyone" ran to the rear of the bldg. to "lend" a hand. This was while the fire was still in the uncontrolled freeburn stage. Immediate Freelancing.
From a command standpoint this was unacceptable. Fortunately the firefighter was recovered with minor injuries. Although the actions taken by his brothers was admirable, they also could have lead to additonal tragic outcomes. This is where the lack of training and self-control kicked in.
As Bob posted; it can happen; even here in our little neck of the state!
Tim
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Post by SIERRA 14 on Jan 9, 2004 22:44:12 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it any better Tim. Freelancing is totally unacceptable. Freelancing affects the whole operation. Another task may depend on the completion of the task assigned to the "freelancer". Bad things will be the result.
RIT is synonymous with structures but don't forget to look outside the box. I have seen the exact same scenario as the one referred to in Towanda happen on wildfires. I am just as guilty as the next wanting to pitch in an help but the reality is Command has to make the decision to assign resources to a rescue. I personally believe having a full-fledged RIT Team established in our area isn't realistic. That's not to say nothing can be done though. On the large wildfires I have been on in the West often times there is a primary task and secondary tasks assigned. PA usually has several EMS trained people on our handcrews. They are not nationally recognized but most Incident Management Teams (IMT) I have worked with recognize them as EMS and use us accordingly. We may have a secondary assignment to handle medical incidents that occur in our Division. It works well and we (PA) get a lot of recognition for it. And I personally believe there are people alive today because of EMT’s and First Responders from PA.
I can see that type of thing happening here too. An example would be giving a group a primary assignment of RIT and a secondary assignment that keeps them available but still completing a functional task. Manpower is too precious to have a RIT Team sitting around waiting for something happen. It most likely would be a departmental or multiple neighboring departments’ thing. It may be possible beyond that at a County level but I have reservations.
Just my thoughts.
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