W4SFD
Junior Member
"Condemnation without investigation is the ultimate ignorence" Albert Einstein
Posts: 16
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Post by W4SFD on Oct 21, 2004 0:09:59 GMT -5
O.K. Here it comes! Please understand that I'm not trying to start a fight but I must EDUCATE you about Motorola Quantars Antennas as well as everything motorola Out sources. Motorola don't make antennas! They buy them Privatelabel from Celwave(formerly Phelps-Dodge) Batteries are from a varity of sources. I can't see paying $1500 for a $800 antenna just because it has a Motorola label. So, WAKE-UP to the reality of the business world. Motorola is in business to make money and they don't give two donuts if they screw you in the process. They have a long history of poor sales tactics and when an Amatuer Radio Operator walks in to a sales pitch the Motorola man will walk out. And I'll be happy to prove it to you. Motorola has been fighting with themselves for years. They have divested most of motorola to save the core company. IBM bought Motorola's semi-conponent business. They shut down they Florida Pager plant. They are not long for the future. And they're stock is going down.
enogh said! if you pray to the great god M you're going to get burned!
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W4SFD
Junior Member
"Condemnation without investigation is the ultimate ignorence" Albert Einstein
Posts: 16
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Post by W4SFD on Oct 21, 2004 0:51:52 GMT -5
Well, If the correct antennas are installed, you would get sensational coverage from Armenia Mt. But you have to understand the technology. Antennas can be made to broadcast on a down tilt angle of up to 10 degrees normal is 7 degrees down tilt.
A point of correction! I ain't talkin' about renting tower space. Elmira BOCES controls eight Ed TV towers that are no longer broadcasting. They ain't been use for years. Seven of them can be had. Just move them.
So let's try this on for size. add 240Ft to the edtv Tower on the north end Round Top brings it up 480 FT. put a 360Ft on Gillet Ridge between Gillet and South creek. There's a 100ft HAM tower there now. Are you beginning to see the improvement. For many moons Bradford county used Low Band and short towers would work somewhat, but with High band you some ALTITUDE.
The fastest way to gain the knowledge is to look at Amatuer radio on the two meter band(144-148 Mhz) Hams have the Expertise to engineer radio systems that work the first time. And they generally use what We junk. The linkage systems Hams have built include the west coast linkage. you can talk to people in san francisco when you are in san deigo. And do it with a 5 watt portable.
"Big M is more expensive, but they have the infrastructure to make it work when they're not trying to screw you and they can fix it when they feel like it or are forced to."
W4SFD
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Post by 911guy on Oct 21, 2004 9:52:43 GMT -5
With all due respect, here are some facts:
1) Downtilt antennas have been used/tried in Bradford County with very poor results.
2) Bradford County has not bought any antenna systems from Motorola in years. They are purchased from wholesalers. Same equipment as M sells.
3) Adding height to existing towers has been explored many times. The issue is, once you talk about public safety systems, you introduce design and engineering requirements that are not necessarily a concern for amateur radio. Specifically, wind and ice loading. Simply putting 200+ feet of steel on top of existing towers that were never designed for 70mph base wind load with appurtances and 1/2" radial ice loading at that new height opens it up for a) structural failure with no recourse to the tower manufacturer and b) liability on the county.
4) The ability to talk from San Diego to San Fransico is nothing new. You can talk from almost anywhere to almost anywhere in the US with a Nextel phone!
Public safety radio systems do not have the same requirements as most amateur radio systems. This is NOTHING against amateur systems - just different. There has to be someone (agency/company) that stands behind the system for liability, it must be reliable, with repair available 24/7, coverage has to be in every dale and valley, must activate pagers that have mediocre receive sensitivity (nothing against any one pager - it is inherent fact with internal antennas at +/- 3 ft. elevation). It must have capacity for the number of users, a central control (911 center), interconnectivity and redundancy. These and many other factors have to be weighed when approaching public safety systems.
Amateurs have often bragged about their ability to talk from A to B with a 5 watt portable. That's great, but where is A, where is B, who all can use it at once, and what happens at location C when units I, II and III need to talk to each other? Arguably, cell phones are almost the ultimate interoperable, compact system - BUT do they work everywhere? Can you count on them in a disaster? NO! That's why public-safety systems have to be their own, stand-alone system that will work when other systems fail (at least hopefully!)
I realize I'm probably not going to change your mind about anything, but you should know that, when it comes to Bradford County's public-safety radio system, I can PERSONALLY vouch for having the most economical, most reliable and usable system possible explored from many many angles.
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W4SFD
Junior Member
"Condemnation without investigation is the ultimate ignorence" Albert Einstein
Posts: 16
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Post by W4SFD on Oct 23, 2004 6:33:10 GMT -5
Nextel can thank Amatuer Radio for technology to do what they do. As well as, Paramedic radios, Cellular systems, and the vast majority of what we do with two way communications equipment. If it wasn't for the research that is done on the Ham Bands, radio would be either a lot more expensive or not available. The most reliable systems today, are Amatuer systems. When all else fails, Amatuer systems are still working and going strong. And Us Amatuer are not stupid. We know more about wind load, ice loading and what to do about it. Some Ham installations even have tower heating elements. Yes, the technical specifications are different. But, Amatuer systems are handling digital packets, voice, morse code, faxisimile, gps locators, and a multitude of other technologies that we normally would not use. But, they talk and we talk, so why do amatuer systems on VHF high Band work better. Simple, They were designed to work correctly by people who do it for a hobby. Unlike public safety systems that are designed utilize the spending of as much money as possible. Most people in public safety loss sight this fact. Laying all the expense of grossly over-priced components on the taxpayer is somehow got to change. EXXCCUUUSSSSEEE ME! But my conservitism is showing. I believe in getting the biggest bang for the buck! Not the biggest buck for the bang. If that means asking Hams to help design or redesign a public safety system, than so be it. Conversely, a purely commercially designed system is designed to cost you as much money as the market will bear. And that includes reliability. The system is only as reliability as the builder makes it. As for liability, the better designed systems are more reliability and therefore less chance of producing liability. I got about half way thru your last post and started to think that you were a motorola salesperson. I have heard the same arguement from them for three decades. Just because it cost more don't make it better. It just make it cost more. AS to Bradord County's Public Safety system, Who built it? Who Designed it? Who Maintains It? Again, I don't care who you're doing business with, There are inherit flaws in any system that has no amatuer input is "The system is designed to fail so someone can make money". And the biggie flaw is lightning. I've been in the communications end of things for some 30 years. This is not my first rodeo. Most people you do business with are there to deliver a product on-time, that works and in good faith. I have not found that to be true with Motorola. Example: Down here in South Carolina Motorola has been pushing, I mean Strong arming, County governments to 800Mhz. Based on what I seen. You can't run a county PS system on four used channels of SmartNet Trunking when they were 17 channels before. and the cost is twice that of MA-Com, Johnson or Kenwood. Yes, I said twice the cost. And need I remind you that now two of the locals of FDNY are suing Motorola for systems failure of 9/11. When I was the Comms off. of the Sayre FD I cut the costs in half by changing from Motorola service to Tri-Cities Comms. Better service, faster, and more reliability. With motorola, they lost some of our portables, we waited alot and it cost too much. It's obvious that I will not be able to change you either. So, I've stated my piece. And if there is any one who disagrees, well, that what it's all about. Freedom to be heard. Just keep praying we don't loss it!
W4SFD
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