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Post by chief322 on Aug 3, 2006 14:59:21 GMT -5
During a recent thunderstorm activity (8/3) at app. 1545 hours I heard the county deny a request for an incident channel. Now I realize that during a multiple department response during a storm utilizes a lot of air time, but should this happen, would it be in-appropriate to use fire 1 for op's, particularly if a department is denied an op's channel.
Also.... If an emergency traffic only is declared on F1 and operations are occuring on F1 due to an unvailable op's frequency, are the utilizing department's expected to adheed to this declaration?
Tim
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Post by 4157 on Aug 3, 2006 15:23:51 GMT -5
Why does there need to be any radio traffic for cutting up a tree down in the roadway?
Necessary Traffic: Directions - for an apparatus Officers and Apparatus Responding Officers and Apparatus on scene w/ 1 report One officer announcing the scene is cleaned up, and everyone is available
Unnecessary Traffic: Directions for every single person who is responding (go to the station-not the scene) Everyone, officer or not, responding w/ long messages Everyone and their kid brother on scene, each w/ their own report Everyone available, going by the hall, but driving around, to tie up more radio traffic by reporting every single twig in the roadway
Couldn't a company buy 2-way radios and conduct their own operations w/ out using a county freq?
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Post by Medic13 on Aug 3, 2006 16:09:11 GMT -5
Couldn't have said it any better myself Chris
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Post by FIREFIGHTER16 on Aug 3, 2006 16:40:13 GMT -5
NO IT WOULDNT BE APPROPRIATE TO USE FIRE 1 FOR OPS IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT. FIRE 1 IS TIED UP DUE TO DISPATCH AND UNITS RESPONDING. IF ALL THE OPERATIONS CHANNELS ARE TIED UP, FOR EXAMPLE IF DEPT 12 IS USING FIRE 5 AND DEPT 16 NEEDS A FREQUENCY WE CAN PUT THEM ON FIRE 5. IT WONT EFFECT FIELD UNITS BUT IT WILL AFFECT US HERE AT THE COMM CENTER. BUT FOR A TREE DOWN THERE IS NO NEED FOR AN OPS CHANNEL. IF YOU CUT OUT FIRE 1 THERE IS STILL 7 CHANNELS OUT THERE. THINK ABOUT IT.
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Post by mountainman on Aug 3, 2006 21:15:28 GMT -5
Just to let everyone know I was the one that called for the ops channel. We had a tree that broke a telephone pole with wires in the road. The tree was blocking half the road. We had to shut one lane of traffic down, so I went to channel 7 the channel we normally use for directing traffic and could hear that it already was being used. Thats when I called county for the ops channel and was told no. If a mistake was made sorry, but I'm still learning as I go. Mabye you guys could give a little advise on what to do the next time? Howard
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Post by Medic12 on Aug 3, 2006 21:48:01 GMT -5
If having an ops channel affects the comm center, just turn it down on the console so you don't have to listen to it . Bradford County is the only county around that I know of that monitors the ops channels. Everyone else just assigns an ops channel and doesn't monitor it, if an officer or apparatus needs to relay some imperative info then utilize fire 1 when appropriate. Just a thought???
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Post by Medic13 on Aug 3, 2006 23:23:30 GMT -5
Everyone else just assigns an ops channel and doesn't monitor it, if an officer or apparatus needs to relay some imperative info then utilize fire 1 when appropriate Not a bad idea. Doubt it would have eased the caos yesterday though... each incident that involves utilities needs county-to-unit communication as far as whats involved, pole numbers, nearest addresses, ect. It would have been more of a pain to make the departments fight over fire1 to relay that info. Chris hit it on the nose though... it's a radio traffic issue. Even if you have utilities involved, there is only so much that needs to be discussed over the radio.
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Post by chief58 on Aug 4, 2006 0:14:19 GMT -5
This all sounds good, but if we are only directing traffic and the radio is covered with traffic why not do what the old flagmen did put some flares out back the road a bit to slow them down and stand near the scene or tree (line of sight) and direct the traffic and not use the radio save your time on it for traffic the county needs to know to help with the incident. Last week we was on the scene with one of our neighboring departments and directed the traffic by line of sight and didn’t need the radio only to say we arrived on the scene and that we was returning to the station. Sometimes we become to dependent on the radio and use it for every little thing out there doesn’t anyone carry a cell phone, if F1 in tied up call the county and tell them what’s important and hang up that’s not bad or maybe we should look and see if we can use one or two of the red or green dot frequency’s and have them in the radio for the jobs like a tree down on the road and directing traffic, it’s our on fault for letting everyone on the radio and not remembering what its for and if it don’t need to be said then don’t say it Just my thoughts and we can all improve on this in time if we just talk to one another about what really needs to be done.
Chief 58 ;D
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Post by FIREFIGHTER16 on Aug 4, 2006 17:35:36 GMT -5
at this present time we do have a frequency just for fire police. which is channel 7. even if joe shmo from tinker town is on that frequency, use it. every department has there own fp#'s so i hope there would be no confusion on who you were talking to. also most departments should have fire 8 in there portibles if you dont you should get it in there. this will be your fire ground operations. just food for thought
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Post by chief322 on Aug 6, 2006 2:21:01 GMT -5
I fully agree that an op's channel is uneccesary during debris removal and utility calls. However, during the last storm, no major emergency was dispatched that would warrant using every available requested channels. Paper thought would say everyone would keep quiet during non-emergent calls, but real life shows the opposite, hence multiple departments requesting op's channels during non-emergent calls. Basically they all are saying we are on a BS call and we are going to talk on the radio.
All followed procedure and requested a talking channel off of the primary. The dispatcher did what was proper in denying a channel request as all were full.
I guess my real question is what is primary for, strictly dispatch? We assign an op's channel to field units on scene working an incident. On major emergencies, we assign channels for supportive operations, such as water relays, to the already assigned operations channel.
My belief was primary (F1) was also known as the command channel during an incident. Command is not operations unless command is going to assume operations as well. In minor or non-emergent operations, this quite often happens. During a major emergency incident it shouldn't and this is why a clear command channel should be given, hence F1.
Am I wrong here?
Tim
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Post by Medic13 on Aug 6, 2006 13:10:51 GMT -5
In a perfect world, all we would hear on F1 during a storm situation like that would be the first one or two officers, the apparatus, and one scene report. All we would hear on the ops frequencies would be apparatus assignments by command, and command giving information for the request of utility companies. If this was actually the case, it would be possible to throw several departments on one ops frequency (I believe we already had two on each). That wasn't the case the other day... everyone and their brother needed to call responding, on scene, current location, projected location, ect... everyone and their brother needed to give a scene report... departments couldn't decide what apparatus to take, so they had to chit-chat about it... utility information was given in pieces by multiple different individuals, instead of aquiring all the information and reporting it in one shot... there was undoubtedly folks driving around looking for crap to call in over the air, even when it's something he/she can clear on their own. Granted, not every department was like this, but we all know that it only takes a few bad departments to ruin a well-run operation. In situations like that, you have to work with what you've got. Each and every fire frequency was busy. When an ops freq isn't available, F1 still doesn't have to be used. A lot of people completely forget that F2 is available (or they don't understand the concept that it's just F1 without the repeater). It's not as good as an ops channel, but it's a hell of a lot better than using F1. I agree that F1 should be strictly dispatch. As far as I know, this is in the works for the future. Even that won't cure poor radio use. Unfortunately, I just can't see the guilty departments fixing their issues when they refuse to admit they're part of the problem.
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Post by chief322 on Aug 6, 2006 16:24:20 GMT -5
WIth that ascertion, why is command operating command on an operations channel? Command is not operations! Operations is a branch of the command system. This is where the chit-chat from the operation level to the task level takes place. Why would communications need to listen to the operations sector when it should be awaiting direction from Command on a command channel.
I have seen very, very few departments that operate a scene with an operations officer or sector within this county. All to often Command stays on the operations channel and our dispatchers must play the game of hide and seek finding him on channels. If command shouldn't be on the primary, why have a repeater system available on primary? Lets face it, a true working incident may take upwards of two to three tactical channels. What do we have readily available?
Again, Am I wrong here?
Tim
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Post by 4157 on Aug 6, 2006 22:50:27 GMT -5
If one feels the need to use 3 tac freq's per company, per incident, then said company should procure a license from the FCC and have 3 private channels. Most-modern-radios have a nearly unlimited frequency bank. Use them.
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Post by 911wacker on Aug 7, 2006 9:01:12 GMT -5
In a perfect world, all we would hear on F1 during a storm situation like that would be the first one or two officers, the apparatus, and one scene report. All we would hear on the ops frequencies would be apparatus assignments by command, and command giving information for the request of utility companies. Something that needs to be addressed as well is the term "no echo", it seems many feild units have forgotten or are not aware what this means. During the last storm after several departments were dispatched I heard county dispatching a department with "no echo"............for those of you who don't know what this means.........it means county doesn't want to hear every tom-dick and harry with a radio responding and also that they won't be acknowledging multiple units per department, I beleive the protocol is one unit acknowledging the call per department then no further acknowledgement unless your IC has a request. For those of you who have forgotten, this is where your units should be using channel 2 to talk to each other!! It is up to each chief to ensure his department is aware of proper radio usage, and also to discipline where needed should someone not comply.
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Post by Medic13 on Aug 7, 2006 9:36:02 GMT -5
I dont think it's all that uncommon to use two ops frequencies on a big incident. I haven't seen three yet, but anything is possible. I agree, Tim. It would be a lot easier to have ops channels that county doesn't have to monitor, and assign one officer (or the IC) to communicate necessary information with county on the primary channel. It would help one aspect of communications. Still won't do much to help the primary channel, because we'll still have the idiots who think every single wacker out there needs to call responding, ETA, current location, projected location in 5min, on scene, and yet another scene report. If the chiefs of departments with folks like this actually cracked down on poor radio use and the number of people on the air, the system we have now would be fine.
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