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Post by 911wacker on Nov 12, 2003 19:16:02 GMT -5
Can somebody PLEAZZZZZZZ - tell me why an ambulance or someone who is responding with an ambulance to a fire has to run lights and siren. Why do they do it when all that they are going for is a stand-bye assignment?? Do these same people run red lights to the local football and soccer feilds when doing stand-bye for them?? I bet not so what is the reason behind it?? Do these responders not understand the extra risk they are putting themselves and others in??FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - SOMEONE PLEASE LET THEM RUN THE SIREN AT TRAINING SO THEY CAN RUB ONE OFF WHEN IT WON'T PLACE PEOPLE AT RISK!!!!! These people have done it long enough, can someone please give them the common sense to realize what they are doing is actually wrong!!
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Post by 2Truck on Nov 12, 2003 22:10:54 GMT -5
I can see what you are saying, but what about the cases where there is a burn victam or possible entrapment? In my opinion as an IC I would want the ambulance to get there as quickly as possible so that several of my fire fighters are not tied up doing patient care when they could be doing other tasks on the fire ground. Also there are some places (not in this area though) where the medics on board ditch the rig at jobs, and are used to supplement the staffing on rigs.
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Post by Valley3 on Nov 12, 2003 23:01:50 GMT -5
Scott, tell us how you really feel. But, how do you know it is just a stand-by? many times in my 20+ years in EMS have I seen injuries to home owners who are attempting to put a fire out with a garden hose, or trying to save pets, personal belongings etc.
Should they drive at warp speed? no, and when they arrive they should keep from blocking fire apparatus and keep themselves from getting blocked in, but if they are dispatched to a working fire they should respond in an emergent mode.
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 12, 2003 23:13:59 GMT -5
My bad I should have stated in the first post, to a fire where there is no entrapment or patients. In fact the example that prompted me to post this was not a residential structure at all. I do realize and have seen burn victims from such attempts as you stated. And by all means if a fellow firefighter gets hurt we want an ambulance there to help them.
Sad as it may be, even for car fires and brush fires there is still sqauds that do it!!
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Post by canton1 on Nov 13, 2003 0:28:32 GMT -5
God, If only we were all paramedics!!! to be perfect and want no excitement in our life!!!
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911Mom
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Welcome to the real world!
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Post by 911Mom on Nov 13, 2003 9:33:08 GMT -5
As long as we are asking WHY WHY WHY, maybe someone can explain something to me. EMS arrives on scene of a fully involved structure and asks what appears to be the IC (white helmet standing in the middle of the road with a radio welded to his ear) where he would like EMS to stage. The reply was "Somewhere out of the way". When will certain fire departments realize that at a fire there is a good chance of injuries. In fact at this fire, there was a smoke inhalation/burn victim right off the get-go. But because of this individuals attitude towards EMS, it took us extra time to get to the victim. And even then we were advised through county and not the"IC". But these same individuals would be screaming like little girls if one of their firefighters got hurt and EMS wasn't onscene immediately if not sooner. When will certain chiefs realize that EMS is an important part of the fire scene and not just a nuisance to be parked way down the road "out of the way"? Granted we can't put out the fire, but we can help the people who have just blackened their lungs with smoke or burnt the skin off of their bodies. Oh and I am writing about a "Non-residential", fully involved sawmill fire. Sirens and lights? You bet your ass.
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Post by Valley3 on Nov 13, 2003 17:48:17 GMT -5
The Fire Chiefs know there is good chance of injury at a fire scene, and is right by telling the Ambulance to stage "some place out of the way". That means get as close as you can without hindering fire and so you don't get the ambulance blocked in, EMS command will then tell the chief where they are staged, and if the chief finds a better spot you can move.
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 14, 2003 9:05:15 GMT -5
Common sense would prevail when it comes to staging the ambulance. I'm sure that the last thing on a fire chiefs mind is where to park the ambulance when he is trying to figure out where to park all the fire trucks that will actually be fighting fire. The IC probobly still didn't know what he was going to do with all of those yet............ And for those of you who think it is the "right thing to do" as far as running hot to a fire scene all the time with an ambulance,please explain to me your reasoning behind the thought............... Why do you think it is needed when someone hasn't reported or there is no edvidence of injury or entrapment?? To me EMS is a just in case sort of thing most of the time, and if someone reports a patient on scene while enroute you could then change your mode of response! Is this wrong or not?
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 15, 2003 9:59:41 GMT -5
Oh and I am writing about a "Non-residential", fully involved sawmill fire. Sirens and lights? You bet your ass. The following is a direct quote from the mandatory policy regarding lights and sirens and their usage from the BSEMS Council: "L&S may only be used when transporting or responding to a call involving a patient who presents or is in good faith percieved to present a combination of curcumstances resulting in a need for immediate medical attention" Self explanitory ;D
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Flynn
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Often imitated; Never Duplicated
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Post by Flynn on Nov 15, 2003 10:29:21 GMT -5
Scott: In your professional, self explanatory opinion, can you explain why a volunteer engine from Towanda or a volunteer tanker from N. Towanda can make it to a fire scene in Monroe Borough/Township before a career staff ALS/BLS unit can, coming from the same munipality?
Do ya think maybe running "hot" may get the proverbial blood running? This may be the case.
This would be akin to an engine company (Dept. 7) taking there sweet-ass time to an MVA that doesn't report fire from dispatch. Since we carry no tool and provide no QRS service, does our arriving quickly matter?
Tim
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 15, 2003 12:47:03 GMT -5
As far as some ambulance's responding and "driving like grandma" that is another issue that sadly happens on occasion. If response is hindered from heavy traffic, etc. that needs to be handled on a case by case basis hence common sense.
As far as you responding an engine to MVA's, scene size-up, hazard or potential hazard mitigation is common at an MVA - perfect job for an equiped engine company to handle. Besides I will assume that you carry a variety of hand tools to assist- start an extrication if needed.
The point here is it really worth the "potential risk" running hot to all calls?? Especially those where 99% of the time an ambulance does absolutley no patient care! I can't say that I agree with the policy 100% however, it is regional policy(also proposed at state level for approval in the new BLS protocol) and pretty much the law................old habits are hard to break, but do we still treat patients or fight fire the same way our fathers and brothers did 20 years ago? NO - emergency services changes every day and to provide the level of service to those who depend on us every day is priority #1, hurting someone on the way to a "routine" call or a stand-bye for an ambulance would be bad public image and certianly bad for those involved.
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3unit2
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Post by 3unit2 on Nov 15, 2003 16:48:25 GMT -5
Scott, What fire are you talking about that got your knickers so twisted? ,about EMS running L&S to a fire call .. Mr Flynn, made a good point..What is the difference between a fire department taking there ,( sweet-ass time to an MVA that doesn't report fire from dispatch. ) Or EMS doing the same thing for a fire call with no entrapment or patient on scene? Posted by: 911WACKER Posted on: Today at 09:59:41 on 11/13/2003 at 09:33:08, 911Mom wrote:Oh and I am writing about a "Non-residential", fully involved sawmill fire. Sirens and lights? You bet your ass. The following is a direct quote from the mandatory policy regarding lights and sirens and their usage from the BSEMS Council: "L&S may only be used when transporting or responding to a call involving a patient who presents or is in good faith percieved to present a combination of curcumstances resulting in a need for immediate medical attention" At a fully involved structure ,with multiple fire departments on scene as at a sawmill fire ,the risk of injury grows rapidly........and this to me means by, BSEMS Council policy ( is in good faith percieved to present a combination of curcumstances resulting in a need for immediate medical attention" ) Every time the pager beeps, the call is HOT!! Some one called 911 for help .. good or bad ,right or wrong ,lights and siren,s or not.........
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 17, 2003 17:54:37 GMT -5
First, lets clear up one thing - one incident may have prompted me to post this thread, it doesn't mean I am singling anyone out!!! This is one of those things that people usaully don't think about - thuroughly think about when they do it. Rick you have a point with that however you left the little part about the patient out. No patient, no lights and sirens unless you are going to publicly admit you routinely break regional protocol!! At least my interpretation of the protocol anyway. ;D
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Nick
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OIF Veteran 2006
Posts: 46
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Post by Nick on Nov 17, 2003 18:17:20 GMT -5
One big difference between a fire dept taking their time to an MVA with no fire is that EMS doesn't do traffic control. If the fire dept doesn't want another MVA on top of the original, they need to get there to control the scene.
This business of running lights and sirens to EVERYTHING is the very reason we now dispatch calls with different priorities attached to them. The Alpha - Echo priorities dictate the response mode of the rig. I was opposed to it originally, but if that's what it takes to calm people down, then so be it. There are calls that warrant going balls-to-the-wall, and there are calls that don't. It all comes down to having good judgement out there. And if your bad judgement runs someone off the road or causes an accident for a BS call, it will bite you!
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Post by canton1 on Nov 18, 2003 0:23:47 GMT -5
Ok, Here we go again with the protocol thing. If it is good enough for BLS why is not the same for ALS.
Believe, I love you all but, You make these policies that BLS must follow then you yourselves (MOST) do not follow them. I have to say that if it is that way for one then it should be for the other. All I am saying here is that if you are telling BLS not to run lights and sirens why do some not when they are supposed to. Is it that the BLS is afraid to step on ALS Toes or What???
I know I keep this going but, I just dont get it. The fire trucks MOST of the time all respond in the same fashion (yes, arguabley to HOT) some times but they all do it the same, pretty much. We all have our opinion as to what a EMERGENCY is, hell we even argue about in our department. But, what the BIG GUY says is the way it is.
If the Protocol is one way then ALL need to follow it that are controlled buy EMS rules.
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