|
Post by ems12 on Dec 7, 2003 20:20:36 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me why I see ambulances driving to the hospital all of the time with their lights going and no siren. I know that they have all been told that this is against the law. What is it going to take before someone listens........An accident? ? Someone getting killed? I think it is time that we all used our heads and evaluated why we are running lights without siren to the hospital when in all reality, most of the time we do not need either.........
|
|
|
Post by Matt Russell on Dec 7, 2003 23:39:40 GMT -5
Brent, this has been posted a couple of times and I have copy and pasted this from a post by atpd2 under lights and sirens to BS calls.
§3105. Drivers of emergency vehicles.
(a) General rule. - The driver of an emergency vehicle, when responding to an emergency call or when in the pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law or when responding to but not upon returning from a fire alarm or other emergency call, may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions stated in this section.
(b) Exercise of special privileges. - The driver of an emergency vehicle may:
(1) Park or stand, irrespective of the provisions of this part.
(2) Proceed past a red signal indication or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation, except as provided in subsection (d).
(3) Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as the driver does not endanger life or property, except as provided in subsection (d).
(4) Disregard regulations governing direction of movement, or overtaking vehicles or turning in specified directions. (c) Audible and visual signals required. - The privileges granted in this section to an emergency vehicle shall apply only when the vehicle is making use of an audible signal and visual signals meeting the requirements and standards set forth in regulations adopted by the department, except that an emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle need not be equipped with or display the visual signals. An ambulance which is transporting a patient may use either the lights or the audible warning system, or both, as determined by the driver of the ambulance.
(d) Ambulances, blood delivery vehicles and human organ delivery vehicles. - The driver of an ambulance, blood delivery vehicle or human organ delivery vehicle shall comply with maximum speed limits, red signal indications and stop signs. After ascertaining that the ambulance, blood delivery vehicle or human organ delivery vehicle will be given the right-of-way, the driver may proceed through a red signal indication or stop sign.
(e) Exercise of care. - This section does not relieve the driver of an emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons.
(f) Pedalcycles. - No part of this section shall be construed to restrict the operation of a pedalcycle used by a police officer during the course of performing official duties.
(g) Emergency vehicle preemption devices. -
(1) The department may promulgate regulations for the operation and use of preemptive traffic devices by emergency vehicles.
(2) An individual other than authorized emergency personnel who operates or uses a preemptive traffic device commits a misdemeanor of the third degree.
(3) The possession of a preemptive traffic device by an individual who is not an authorized user of the device is prohibited. The device if in the possession of a nonauthorized user shall be deemed contraband and shall be seized by a law enforcement officer.
(Chgd. by L.2001, Act 75(4), eff. 8/25/2001.)
I don't read where it states that it is the law that BOTH must be utilized at the same time. Infact I read it to say AND OR meaning one or the other or both. I'm not saying I agree with this but, this is how I interpret it.
|
|
3unit2
Junior Member
Posts: 24
|
Post by 3unit2 on Dec 8, 2003 9:50:35 GMT -5
"Can anyone tell me why I see ambulances driving to the hospital all of the time with their lights going and no siren. I know that they have all been told that this is against the law." What law are you refering too??
Lights and or sirens are "tools".. No different than a backboard or a stair chair. To be used as needed. At 0300,I am not going to "run" the siren,all the way from 220 to RPH ER, unless there is a need to do so. Lights?? Maybe, more often than not, the "reds" will be on..
Right or Wrong, Agree or Disagree?? This is MY story and MY OPINION only.. on this subject.
|
|
|
Post by newbie on Dec 8, 2003 19:39:57 GMT -5
What law? There is no law stating that a siren has to be used when lights are on. The only law about running sirens is when utilizing a privilage for emergency vehicles, proceeding through a red light, crossing a lane etc... But also ambulances have special circumstances where they don't run sirens (cardiac arrests and so on) that goes for lights as well. Yes I agree most of the time neither are needed.
|
|
Nick
Full Member
OIF Veteran 2006
Posts: 46
|
Post by Nick on Dec 8, 2003 19:41:43 GMT -5
Sirens are not always helpful. They tend to worry your patient and keep you from hearing valuable info over the radio. Myself, I use it when approaching a dangerous intersection or if I see a car starting to pull out ahead of me. Sirens are far better used responding to the call than they are with patient and crew on board. Lights, however, still let everyone know that you need to get somewhere without getting their pucker-factor up to 300 psi and waking up two counties in the process. When I'm driving an ambulance,I decide how best to respond based on type of call, road conditions, and time of day/night. The plain fact is, it is not always advisable to run a siren when your lights are on.
|
|
|
Post by ems12 on Dec 9, 2003 7:22:45 GMT -5
In reply to 21unit 15..........You are not right i9n this case. Their is a law that states if you run lights you must use a siren. If you were to get into accident with your lights on and no siren, you could be held liable. I also think that it is better not to use lights and siren in many cases. Using lights with out a siren raises the liability of those traveling on the roads. I just want people to understand what a chance they are taking not only for themselves but for the patient that is in the back.
|
|
|
Post by Brian Barnes on Dec 9, 2003 9:41:52 GMT -5
Brent, I have always heard that if lights, then siren. Someone quoted the law, and I have to agree, it does look like it is at the discretion of the ambulance driver. Can you provide a reference that supports what you are saying and what I always thought to be the case. I certainly agree, that lights without a siren only increases your liability. If I am driving an ambulance to the hospital with lights on, then it must be a true emergency and I must need to get their FAST. If I need to get their fast, then I am obviously going to be going through lights, passing traffic, etc. If I am doing all of this and only have my lights on and wack a pedestrian in downtown Towanda, you better believe that I am going to court (along with my Captain and President and all the others on the call). I am sure that I would be convicted of negligence because I failed to properly warn the pedestrian - and I was speeding, or passing traffic, or doing something else. I know our fire department rule (Upper Allen) is that if they lights are on, the sirens are on. The EMS company I used to work for (West Shore EMS) has the same rule. I also thought that I heard it was a law in EVOC - but that was awhile ago and I can't remember. Keep going everyone, this is interesting...
|
|
|
Post by GVEMS11 on Dec 9, 2003 12:34:40 GMT -5
The Pennsylvania Vehicle Code (Title 75, §3105), as posted by Western16 and borrowed from ATPD2, states that when transporting a patient, an ambulance may use either lights and siren or both, as determined by the driver. It also states that an ambulance may not disregard the posted speed limit, nor may an ambulance proceed past any form of a stop signal until first obtaining control of the intersection, and (perhaps most importantly) that the driver is not relieved from the duty to drive with due regard.
However, the Bradford Susquehanna EMS Council EMS Vehicle Emergency Warning Lights and Siren Policy of March 10, 2003, states that "L&S will both be used when exercising any moving privilege granted to EMS vehicles responding in an emergency mode (that is, proceeding through a red light or stop sign after coming to a complete stop or opposing traffic in an opposing lane or one-way street)." The Council policy also states that "It is inappropriate to transport patients using emergency warning lights without using the siren when exercising any moving privileges granted to EMS vehicles."
Both being said, the state law is the superseder, but the agencies in the Council are also governed by Council policy within the confines of the vehicle code. The policy, though, states that "when exercising any moving privilege". Exceeding the posted speed limit is NOT a moving privelege that is granted to ambulances by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. So, combining the vehicle code and the Council policy, an ambulance that is transporting a patient, obeying the speed limit, in its own lane, and not attempting to obtain the right-of-way in an intersection is permitted to run lights only during such a circumstance.
Now... is this how it should be? Probably not. Are lights and/or sirens even needed on a majority of calls? NO.
|
|
3unit2
Junior Member
Posts: 24
|
Post by 3unit2 on Dec 9, 2003 13:11:50 GMT -5
Ok Iwill give you that one, that running lights without the siren does increase the liability..,but I didn't say I wouldn't use it. I do use as it, as I (the driver) feel it is needed!!! Give us backwoods country ridgerunners some credit here will ya.. Jus cuz yall comed fromed da bigg citty,dontin means weins all stupid..
What I don't agree with and never will at this point in time is, that at 4 in the morning, with sometimes a 20 plus mile trip to the nearest hospital with a cardic pt . on board. Is being told I HAVE TO run the siren the whole trip, when I might meet a grand total of 3 cars.
Now you are going to say WHY even run lights then?? My answer to that is,those few cars know that there is some sort of a (emergency vechicle) coming and they have some place to go as quickly and as safely as possible.. and YES if that means using the siren I would use it..
Out here in the "boonies", the (ALWAYS USE) of a siren is just not NEEDED!! I have said before ,lights always, siren when and as needed..
|
|
|
Post by ems12 on Dec 9, 2003 13:56:57 GMT -5
Ok. Lights and siren or both means. LIghts and siren which is also both. It does not say only lights or only siren. Thanks........
|
|
|
Post by ems12 on Dec 9, 2003 13:58:33 GMT -5
If it is 4:00 am in the morning, why are you running lights anyway. Just a thought? ?
|
|
|
Post by Brian Barnes on Dec 9, 2003 14:01:13 GMT -5
Good points 3unit2. I feel as though I might have offended you, and for that I apologize. I NEVER mean to put anyone down. Maybe you didn't know, I am not from the city, I am from Wysox... born, raised and got my start in EMS and Fire. I now live in a slightly more populated area, but that makes me no better... just different. If I ever come across as demeaning, please put me in my place. I have the utmost respect for all of you... for you are the ones that are there doing the job, and you are the ones that my family and friends are relying on... thank YOU for all that you do and thank YOU for taking this job seriously and with such passion!! (PS: I know what it is like driving the ambulance on a 20 mile trip to the hospital - I'll admit, I didn't always run the siren with lights... but I was never very comfortable with that - because I never really felt I had a good grasp on what was allowed - in fact I still don't, hence why I am participating in this topic.)
|
|
3unit2
Junior Member
Posts: 24
|
Post by 3unit2 on Dec 9, 2003 16:43:10 GMT -5
Brian ,apology accepted.. This whole light and siren thing has hit a real sore spot with me.. I am not a first year rookie in this world of (emergency services..),fire or EMS. I have certain opinions or feeling on how things are /or should be done. Right or Wrong, this is how I do things ,untill I find a better way.
EMS1, You and I, will probably never see things eye to eye.. That is what makes us,US.............
1. " If it is 4:00 am in the morning, why are you running lights anyway. Just a thought?? " I answered that question already....
2."Ok. Lights and siren or both means. LIghts and siren which is also both. It does not say only lights or only siren. Thanks........ "
Answer, taking from the PA.Vehicle Code, An ambulance which is transporting a patient may use either the lights or the audible warning system, or both, as determined by the driver of the ambulance
You read it one way, I read it another. It says (use either or). You say the glass is half full, I say the glass is half empty.
|
|
atpd2
Full Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by atpd2 on Dec 9, 2003 23:57:17 GMT -5
From an EMS outsider (but one that was pretty active for a few years in the mid 70's) you're debating a a very small problem. I think back to the way ambulances were operated on the highways back then compared to now, safety has improved 1000%. Back then drivers bragged about how fast they drove, how fast they took corners etc. Ambulances requested police escorts all the time (I'll bet its been 15 years since I actually escorted an ambulance). Lights and sirens were the norm, regardless of the nature of the call. Its a wonder that there weren't more accidents in the area involving ambulances. Some ambulance organizations even required lights to be used on a transport calls, their theory being that if they had a patient they had to have the lights on. It got kind of confusing when one of these ambulances stopped for a red light with their emergency lights going and all the other traffic stopped for them and they just sat there until the light turned green. My point is, the degree of professionalism shown by the EMS personnel in the area has increased tremendously over the past 25+ years. Hats off to you guys
|
|
3unit2
Junior Member
Posts: 24
|
Post by 3unit2 on Dec 10, 2003 9:24:34 GMT -5
"My point is, the degree of professionalism shown by the EMS personnel in the area has increased tremendously over the past 25+ years. Hats off to you guys "
THANK YOU............
And to everyone in this upcoming holiday season, may it be safe,happy and quiet..
|
|