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Post by 911wacker on Dec 11, 2003 3:54:27 GMT -5
I think maybe we have seen this topic or simalar posted here before Brent, I hope that you get an answer for your question because all I got for my simalar topic was a whole bunch of "because I can" answers with no real justification or explanation as to why these people feel the need to constantly run lights when they were responding to a stand-bye. In fact most of the providers in the region choose to ignore the policy that was set forth (openly admitting in most cases that I have seen/heard). Maybe they all think that they are immune to lawsuits and liability, which is another sad case of bad judgement on their part. I'm not sure why this would be much of an issue anyway, if people used common sense they would realize 95% of patients don't warrant, nor should they get a trip to the hospital with red lights and sirens. I believe that the "proposed" BLS protocols state the patient has to meet certian criteria for an "emergent" transport mode. I also believe that the regional medical director has voiced concern in the past as to the over use of lights and sirens while transporting in the past and I believe that this issue was a QA/QI concern. Personally one of these incidents stands out in my mind, while I was at an Elmira Hospital, one of our counties BLS units was bringing in a non-traumatic back pain, they did not have ALS on board and the patient was odviously stable from the report they gave and the assessment that was done once at the ER. Would you believe that they blasted through the city with red lights and sirens blazing until they reached the hospital?? Certianlly this was uncalled for and is not an isolated incident, as many of these type examples can be given with regards to "over use" of the lights and sirens. Would anyone care to explain the above mentioned example and why they feel it is needed??
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Post by canton1 on Dec 11, 2003 4:04:37 GMT -5
Again, I have to ask.
If all the female doging is about a unit running with the lights and siren when they should not, why is it ok to not run when you should be??
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Post by 911wacker on Dec 11, 2003 4:12:52 GMT -5
One thing at a time Chief!!
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Post by steve74 on Dec 12, 2003 12:45:50 GMT -5
Lights on - siren at discretion of driver
Be the driver of an emergency vehicle involved in a MVA running lights but no siren, get sued (because anyone can sue for anything), and explain to the judge your reasoning for your decision to not use your siren when the person sueing you is sueing only because they say you didn't use due regard to safety because you didn't use your siren and they couldn't see your lights.
Could you lose this case? Yes! It happens.
I know, what is the chance of this happening in BC. Just let it happen once to you as a driver and you'll wish you would've ran that siren. You could still get sued but at least you can say you did everything you could to ensure safety of all. If it is not emergent enough for siren than why run lights? Still get to the hospital just as fast, minute or two difference.
You could be involved in a MVA with another vehicle at 2 AM even though you TEXT that you where the only vehicle on the road at that time of the morning in the "boonies".
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atpd2
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by atpd2 on Dec 12, 2003 13:22:07 GMT -5
Maybe I can clear some things up. I'll stick just to ambulances since this is an EMS board.
1. Regardless of the law, case precedent or your insurance company's opinion ANYONE CAN BE SUED FOR ANYTHING AT ANYTIME. Right or wrong, negligent or not, your insurance company has the final say on whether or not they settle and for how much and you as an individual have to live with it. The best thing you can do is try to limit your liability and make a concerted effert to adhere to todays standards of care, operation, management etc. as established by whatever agency has jurisdiction (ie PaDOH, Bradford-Susquehanna Council, PennDot, the Vehicle Code etc.
2. On the lights vs lights & siren vs no warning devices, it seems pretty simple. A. Ambulances cannot run red lights (traffic signals) without first stopping and receiving the right of way from the other vehicles at the intersection. Your warning lights should be sufficent to do this, but again it is what the driver decides.
B. Ambulances may not proceed past stop signs without first stopping and receiving the right of way from the other vehicles. (same as "A")
C. Ambulances may not exceed the posted speed limit. A driver may find it necessary to use a siren to get the attention of other drivers that may be going under the speed limit to get them to pull over so you can get through congested traffic easier.
If you think about those three things, I think you will realize that for ambulances, you very rarely find yourself in a situation where you have to use your siren.
I sometimes wonder if using a siren on any emergency vehicle anymore changes anything. With the improved sound deading on today's vehicles, 1000 watt subwoofers, cell phones and drivers pre-occupation with everything but driving I question if anything short of 3 Federal Q's and a surplus fog horn from the Queen Mary would get their attention.
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atpd2
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by atpd2 on Dec 12, 2003 13:22:37 GMT -5
Maybe I can clear some things up. I'll stick just to ambulances since this is an EMS board.
1. Regardless of the law, case precedent or your insurance company's opinion ANYONE CAN BE SUED FOR ANYTHING AT ANYTIME. Right or wrong, negligent or not, your insurance company has the final say on whether or not they settle and for how much and you as an individual have to live with it. The best thing you can do is try to limit your liability and make a concerted effert to adhere to todays standards of care, operation, management etc. as established by whatever agency has jurisdiction (ie PaDOH, Bradford-Susquehanna Council, PennDot, the Vehicle Code etc.
2. On the lights vs lights & siren vs no warning devices, it seems pretty simple. A. Ambulances cannot run red lights (traffic signals) without first stopping and receiving the right of way from the other vehicles at the intersection. Your warning lights should be sufficent to do this, but again it is what the driver decides.
B. Ambulances may not proceed past stop signs without first stopping and receiving the right of way from the other vehicles. (same as "A")
C. Ambulances may not exceed the posted speed limit. A driver may find it necessary to use a siren to get the attention of other drivers that may be going under the speed limit to get them to pull over so you can get through congested traffic easier.
If you think about those three things, I think you will realize that for ambulances, you very rarely find yourself in a situation where you have to use your siren.
I sometimes wonder if using a siren on any emergency vehicle anymore changes anything. With the improved sound deading on today's vehicles, 1000 watt subwoofers, cell phones and drivers pre-occupation with everything but driving I question if anything short of 3 Federal Q's and a surplus fog horn from the Queen Mary would get their attention.
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Post by newbie on Dec 14, 2003 3:01:51 GMT -5
Thank You atpd2. That is what most of us have been trying to convey here. It doesn't matter whether your siren is on or not you can still be sued and it can still be found to be your fault. I do believe that it should be used if proceding through a traffic light or stop sign though.(After getting the right of way of course) It is not continuously needed though if you are just traveling down the road. Although 80% of the time or more neither the lights nor the siren are needed.
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Post by steve74 on Dec 14, 2003 11:48:24 GMT -5
Yes, atpd2 has a good point. I thought that back 3 years ago when I lived in bradford co., the EMS council ruled that siren must be ran when lights were on. Then I moved down here to Maryland and they have the same rule - if lights on, then siren will be on regardless of time of day and regardless of an urban or rural area. I'm not sure what were all the reasonings behind this rule in MD but one reason I heard was the reasoning I gave in my earlier post. atpd2 said insurance companies have the final say in whether they settle and for how much in cases like these, but insurance companies have a lot to do with laws and rules such as we have here in MD on the use of lights and siren.
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