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Post by canton1 on Feb 2, 2005 6:09:11 GMT -5
Who can recall Rescue?
Who can recall BLS?
Who can cancel ALS?
Who can cancel Airomedical?
Now---explain why that person should be the only one to have that ability!
Why should someone not be able to recall one of them?
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Post by Medic12 on Feb 2, 2005 8:10:54 GMT -5
In Sullivan and Lycoming Counties any unit on the scene can recall rescue, that being done knowing that there is no entrappment/confinement, and no need for that particular piece. Any unit on the scene can recall BLS, knowing that the units on scene or enroute can handle the amount of patients.
ALS may be cancelled by an EMT or EMT-P only and who provodes a certification number to do so only after they do a quick assessment and dertmine that ALS intervention is not needed. Aeromedical can be cancelled by any unit on the scene, which in my opinion (which usually doesn't mean much) has it's pros and cons. I have heard negative things when a fire chief cancels a bird. I would have no problem if my chief cancelled a helicopter, he has been around a lot longer than me and I am confident that he would make the right call. But some line officers haven't been around that long and aren't medically trained and it think that the only time they should cancel a bird is when A. the pt is DOA/DRT or B. when they are relaying for an EMT. Most places in our area you cant talk to county on a portable, so the only way to talk to county sometimes is through someone else. Someone who is not on the scene of the incident should not have to power to recall anyone. Just my opinion, hope it helps.
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9Wacker1
Full Member
Wacker - and proud of it!
Posts: 54
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Post by 9Wacker1 on Feb 2, 2005 9:24:37 GMT -5
My first thought is that in order to recall, the recalling unit should have some level of emergency medical training (or rescue training). It scares me that a person with no training could make a recall. I've been on scenes where an untrained person arrived on scene and reported to county there were no injuries, only to get there and find there were. And vice-versa - you get a person who thinks it is much worse than it really is. Erring on the side of caution, I think anybody should be able to call for more resources (another BLS rig, ALS, or the bird) - but once they are en route, it needs to be a trained emergency provider who recalls them. In most cases, probably and EMT or EMT-P. My reason for that is that it is an EMT's certification number that goes on the trip sheet as crew chief - if higher care was recalled by an untrained person on scene and should not have been, then that could potentially come back on the EMT. If I am going to risk that, I want it to be my call or another person of my training level or higher.
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Post by blueeighty8 on Feb 2, 2005 12:18:44 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]In Sullivan and Lycoming Counties any unit on the scene can recall rescue[/glow] No... That was changed, don't you remember the near-mass casualty van accident that went FUBAR b/c QRS units could recall anyone they wanted..? We had a call for a van accident w/ eight injuries. A QRS member from another station in Sullivan arrived on scene, declared command, and recalled everyone-Fire, Rescue, and Transport EMS & ALS. We continued in to get refusals, and found that all 8 occupants were still trapped in the van and could not get out. Rescue was needed, and all units had to be called for to come to the scene. Now- If there is no injuries, and every is walking around-A fire chief may recall the rescue. Other wise, you must be a member of the responding company to recall their rescue. That is to avoid the mess w/ the van. If we are responding to an area, that is a mere courtesy of our service, we want our (LTS) protocols to be followed. QRS does not transport-and most have not rode on an ambulance in a LONG time. Unless the patient is going to refuse, or is clearly not injured, the unit that will ultimatly be transporting the patient should make the call on that. I've attended calls where QRS units have recalled ALS, where, if the EMT followed state protocols, they would not have been recalled. [glow=red,2,300] heard negative things when a fire chief cancels a bird[/glow] If they do not have any medical training-at all, they should not be recalling anyone. I've made a point by requesting an EMT # when a fire chief recalled a helo for an incident we were responding to. They didn't give county an on scene report, a patient report, provided no information at all. He recalled ALS, Helo, Rescue, and us... No EMT on scene. Then an EMT arrived on scene, discovered the patient was confined, serious head INJ- and we ended up flying him due to bleeding from the nose & ears. "No Training - No Recall" The way I'd like to see it- The only people that can recall an ALS unit or a Medevac, would be the personnel on the transporting ambulance- or a Paramedic. Too many non-transporting EMT's, that only treat one person every few months make overzealous decisions w/ out knowing protocol-and w/ out doing a proper exam. I.e. If a patient is laying on the ground unconscious, after a fall; you don't recall ALS b/c "the person is tired"... If there is an obvious head injury, "being tired" maybe the the sign of a more serious injury.
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Post by Medic12 on Feb 2, 2005 15:50:22 GMT -5
Chris, You may be right, but how often do you see the protocols being followed? I know for a fact that if we get dispatched for a crash and maybe its dispatched as multiple injuries and Squad 57 is added, that when I get on scene and determine no need and wish to recall it that county will have no problem with my authority. But most likely, if it is multiple injuries you know I wont, I would rather have you guys continue in and assist packaging and traffic control. ;D
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Post by blueeighty8 on Feb 2, 2005 16:04:11 GMT -5
I'd respect YOUR decision, and any decision from an officer. But if I get on scene, and the FD is disrespectful, and not professional enough to assist EMS getting the patients loaded, I'm not going to respect that decision the next call. I have never encountered that problem in Sullivan County. However, I've been called a jackass for asking a fire officer to help us load a patient in Bradford Co.. Who wouldn't find it kind of odd that someone would not be willing to help when asked "hey we need some help here, I'd appreciate it"... "Sorry jackass, that's not our job, we don't do EMS"... Not their job to help save lives? Maybe that's how stations get a bad reputation? So I figure if our Rescue truck is rolling in, they'll be at least willing to help us package and load the patients or help lift, etc. if anything, the two groups of people at an accident that should be able to WORK TOGETHER should be RESCUE and EMS. Or am I wrong? This is my Opinion ONLY...
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Post by Chris VanDruff on Feb 2, 2005 17:56:28 GMT -5
That whole jackass thing is just bothersome to me. totally wrong an they should probably stay home.As for recalling I agree with the general concensus that no training no recall. how many times have we had what appeared to be walking wounded really shouldnt have been walking at all. As far as BLS unit goes we have to continue for sign offs anyway so why recall maybe slow em down but no sense recalling.We have made it a point not to just turn around unless its a mutual aid call
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Post by valleytech36 on Feb 2, 2005 18:35:22 GMT -5
I'm confused? Are there two "recall" forums? Yes, there are two. One in the EMS/QRS Forum and other one under the Rescue Forum.
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Post by Medic13 on Feb 2, 2005 20:14:57 GMT -5
I think (key word: "think") that Brent decided anyone with a PADOH number can recall any EMS. As for my opinion... I agree. It doesn't matter who you run with, as long as you have the training. I don't see why a non-medically trained person should recall any medical service. Even if the patient claims to be unhurt, what's the harm in at least sending a BLS unit to recall ALS, then get the refusal? Even then, what's the harm in waiting for any FR or EMT to arrive? It's sensible, and it adds a buffer of protection in this lawsuit-friendly era. It's not always "obvious" if a person is injured and to what degree, and there are many times when the patient claims no injury initially after the incident, yet decides he/she wishes transport afterall. Doesn't it make sense to have it properly documeted if the patient doesn't wish for treatment? What's the harm in letting a trained person continue in to make the decision? It helps the patient and protects everyone's butt at the same time. Win-win. Same goes for fire. Even though many in EMS are also trained in fire, would it make any sense for an Ambulance to call over med 9 "Well, I don't see any fire here, so you can recall the fire dept". Or "There aren't any cars driving on this road, so you can recall fire police". Sounds silly, but isn't it the same thing? As for rescue, I think it's a little different. It's usually obvious whether or not an incident requires rescue. I have never recalled rescue, and I rarely hear it done; however, it's not uncommon for EMS to arrive on scene, inform county that there isn't entrapment, and county recalls rescue.
On scene reports from anyone are great, but that's the boundary for untrained people, in my opinion.
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