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Post by 911wacker on Oct 9, 2003 1:14:07 GMT -5
Just going to throw one out for you all- Why in a day and age of bigger and better fire trucks and equipment do many departments still choose an 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hand line off first for fires that are odviously larger than can be knocked down effectivly with these such tools. Is it because departments are still in the mindset of having limited water source's and wanting to make them last? Or is it because thats the way our grandfathers did it 40 years ago. I have stood in at least 2 fire stations this year alone and heard "war" stories of how BOOSTER lines are still a valuable tool in initial attack and why we should still use them!! It has been proven time and time agian that more water faster puts out more fire, why do we find ourselves fighting fire with garden hoses when we should be using deck guns?? (just to put it into perspective for you) Case in point - a department I know from upstate New York uses a 750 gpm deck gun nozzle on a 3" pre-connect only 100' long, they will stretch it to fire and spend the entire 1000 gallon booster tank on fast advancing fires to achieve quick knockdown, then stretch the 1 3/4" lines to mop up etc. with tanker water close behind - They call this line there "bazooka" and have achieved great success with it for several years. The fact is if you stop the advance of the fire, the rest should be easy or not!?! What do you think?
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Flynn
Full Member
Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Oct 9, 2003 15:56:15 GMT -5
Gotta say gutsy call by any OIC choosing a blitz attack with a prepiped deck gun with tank water only. I personally have done it three times, once a hero, twice a scapegoat.
To agree with "The Wacker", big fire; big water. This offensive manuevur has a lot of variables, including proper placement of the stream, correct type of nozzle, and known origin of base of fire. Simply dumping your tank at the fire through the roof will produce a parking lot. How many operators can quickly place a stream flowing 1000 gpm accurately through a roof opening or a window from a mounted piece of apparatus sitting some 200' from the bldg and achieve knockdown within the capacity of the tank?
Another issue would be realizing, under a minute, if the effect is working and when to shut down to allow "chasers" to finish the job with the 1-3/4" and balance of tank water.
Given these factors, I wouldn't do this type of assault unless there is a known life hazard or an additional auxillary water source is immediately available (charged supply line or nurse tanker).
Large caliber leader lines, with the appropriate nozzles, would probably be my better choice as they are more mobile to the target or point of entry and can produce similar results.
Good topic, especially from one of you engine boys! ;D
Tim
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Post by 2Truck on Oct 9, 2003 17:10:07 GMT -5
Like Tim said, blitzing a fire is a gutsy call and depends on a lot of variables. We deployed 2 blitzfires right of the bat at fullly involved house about two weeks ago. Thankfully we had a successful attack. During the attack we went through about 6,000 gallons of water (2 tankers and the engine tank) in about 5 minutes. We were fortunate enough to arrive with 2 mutual aid tankers right behind us but how often does that happen? Most of the time it's a hope and wait game that we get stuck playing at any rural fire. For the wacker's comments about fighting fires with small hose lines. In today's mindset most firefighters are used to pulling an 1 3/4 for most fires and rarley train with anything bigger. So when the time comes to pull the big lines they usually don't get pulled becuase it's in the mindset that everything can be handled with a small line. I've been to numerous burn classes at HACC (Harrisburg Area Community College) and have never used anything but an 1 3/4. The lines are on the rigs but the instructor's never have students use them. I heard a story about a busy department getting dispatched to a Hardees with smoke showing and the first thing that was pulled was an 1 3/4. So not only does it happen in the small towns it also happens in the big ones. Failing to train with the big lines is not only in injustice to ourselves but an injustice to the general public. Stay safe and keep training!
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Post by 911wacker on Oct 10, 2003 7:31:59 GMT -5
I agree with you guys about the deck guns - not a very good tool in my opinion for blitz attacks. My focus was mainly with large caliber hand lines - greater than 400 gpm flows. You can easily deploy these lines to a location where you will be able to hit the seat of the fire 95% of the time. The only thing is I am willing to bet that there are only a few if any of these such lines on any engine in this county or nieghboring counties for that matter. I would have to qualify what I siad that this approach would and should only be ordered if you know you have more water within 2-3 minutes or less of the scene.
Blue - nice reply but I don't think you understood what I meant with "blitz attack" - by the time you have deployed all those other handlines we could be a good 15-20 minutes into the fire. ;D
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Post by Matt Russell on Oct 10, 2003 20:58:41 GMT -5
"It has been proven time and time agian that more water faster puts out more fire" ask KIm about the barn fire....he should get an award for all that damn water!- It has also been proven time and time again that lesser amounts of water properly applied will put out more fire and reduce the amount of secondary damage. It all falls back on what you have to work with. Obviously and I think we can all agree that finding and pushing the fire back to the "seat" is the best option but, that isn't always manageable.
I do agree with BIG FIRES get BIG HOSE. The 2 1/2 was invented for a reasons other than a supply line.
To me the "Blitz Attack" is for more like when it's the 4th quarter with 4 ticks left on the clock and you are down by 5 points on your own 25.........The good old Hail Mary.....reach between your butt cheeks and watever you can pull out is what you go with. There are too many variables that can go wrong and the only thing being pulled from your butt is blisters - Hell I know a guy that quickly got to a "worker" with an empty Tanker!
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