cpd209
Junior Member
GOD CREATED POLICEMEN SO FIREFIGHTERS WOULD HAVE HEROES
Posts: 21
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Post by cpd209 on May 3, 2006 8:10:55 GMT -5
Was anything said before to Monroe Borough Council about the Hydrants in the Borough
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Post by chief322 on May 4, 2006 3:37:58 GMT -5
The borough council has been made aware repeatedly over the years about the condition and performance capabilities of the municipal water system in the town. Monroeton does have a looped system as well as dead end lines. I believe all hydrants hit during the job last weekend were in fact on loops. The system in town can supply only enough water for a single family dwelling type of fire.
I believe that incoming gpm flow from both Towanda (with all the pumps on) and Laddsburg are around 1800 gpm. During the course of the fire, units were probably flowing in excess of 4000 gpm. This is why two LDH lines were utilized from the Towanda creek.
I think the fire opened the eyes of the council to their fire suppression capabilites and its limitations. Although the borough has never seen a fire of the magnatude last weekend within its borders, the possibilities still exist with the remaining commercial stites still in town.
For the record, and speaking as a former chief of Monroeton, I thought the actions and strategies performed by all companies involved was tremendous. The mere fact that half of the block is still standing is a testamonial to the agressiveness and determination to all those who responded.
Tim
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24wacker1
Full Member
Can't we all just get along?
Posts: 77
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Post by 24wacker1 on May 4, 2006 22:20:13 GMT -5
During the course of the fire, units were probably flowing in excess of 4000 gpm. This is why two LDH lines were utilized from the Towanda creek. Tim Just for clarification: We had three LDH lines from the Towanda Creek. Wysox(21-engine-6), South Waverly(14-engine-4), and Athens Township(24-engine-2) were all flowing from the creek. Athens Borough(1-engine-2), Sayre(12-engine-3), and Waverly(1301) were, I believe, all relay pumpers between the scene and the creek. That's what I can remember, I'm sorry if I left anyone out.
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Post by chief322 on May 5, 2006 4:24:05 GMT -5
Thanks Chief!
Another point to consider based on the information given from the Valley LDH Task Force officer that night is to use resources immediately available.
Most first and second alarm units on the Monroeton job are part of the Mid-County LDH Task Force. These units were tied up doing offensive / defensive operations. The LDH was there, but strapped to give an adequate secondary water supply due to commitment. Units were very fortunate that a second Task Force was available and did respond; performing yeomen service.
Knowing or anticipating your needed flow rate to sustain operations is critical. Having a municipal water system is a luxury to some and a tease to others. In Monroeton, back in town, is the feed mill. Most hydrants in that area are dead end or in-line off a loop that dead ends. The avg. GPM from the hydrants is anywhere from 300 - 500 gpm. Hitting more than one of these will substantially lower the flow (GPM). This commercial structure screams LDH Task Force, even though a municipal system is immediately available.
Tim
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cpd209
Junior Member
GOD CREATED POLICEMEN SO FIREFIGHTERS WOULD HAVE HEROES
Posts: 21
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Post by cpd209 on May 5, 2006 7:16:26 GMT -5
I just know from working down in Monroeton that if there was a problem with something in town it was not really a problem until it effected the President of the Council, then it was a problem
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Post by chief322 on May 7, 2006 14:18:40 GMT -5
Chris;
To the best of my knowledge that idea has never been suggested to the council. The municipal water system in Monroeton is owned and operated by the Towanda Municipal Authority. They may have considered this in the past, but to this entity, what is the RIO?
The water system in Monroeton did not fail during the block fire. It simply was overtaxed. It supplied the amount of water that the system was built to deliver. As previously stated, the council, on numerous occasions, was informed that the system was capable of delivering flows to adequately supply a single family dwelling at 100% involvement. Did it work for the block fire, yes and no. It did supply a consistant amount of water, just not the amount needed to sustain containment operations.
We are not the only borough that has this predicament. Towanda Borough the month before had to rely on the LDH Task Force for the Bern Bldg. fire. They have the same system owners as Monroeton. The old feed mill in Canton last year required a substantial LDH lay from the Towanda creek after the borough's municipal system became taxed.
Would it be feasible to run a 20 or 30 inch feeder line from Towanda to Monroeton, with a few pumping stations in between solely for fire protection. Monroeton is a bedroom community with limited and restricted property available for commercial development. The risk versus reward for the entity isn't there. I would be more apt to support municipal support in maintaining current accesses to the Towanda creek and/or constructing additional access points. The same could be said of building and maintaining artesian wells throughout the community, particularly those in the western part of the borough that are on dead end mains with a GPM flow of 300.
Just more food for thought.
Tim
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Post by 2Truck on May 7, 2006 17:37:16 GMT -5
This problem is prevalent in EVERY community that has municipal water systems that are 50+ years old. Trust me it sucks to be up in a tower ladder and watch a building burn because the water system is taxed (thankfully it wasn't in my first due area). It all comes down to pre-planning your first due area and knowing what kind of resources will be needed for an incident, IE. up to date box cards. It should be common knowledge for officers and firefighters that are served by an undersized water system that they'll only be able to pickup one hydrant for a working fire. Knowing that, provisions should already be made for a supplemental supply (LDH relay or tanker shuttle) so that all you have to do is ask for additional box alarms and the needed resources are dispatched. We can sit here and talk about how undersized the mains are for years to come but in the end they will still be undersized and not capable of providing the needed flow for a industrial/commercial fire. So rather then talk about that stuff why not build upon what Tim said and find some viable solutions to solve the problem.
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zoid
New Member
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Post by zoid on May 25, 2006 11:28:33 GMT -5
I just know from working down in Monroeton that if there was a problem with something in town it was not really a problem until it effected the President of the Council, then it was a problem To my knowledge, The Monroe Borough Council President had nothing to say about this issue before the fire company had the issue with this and took it to council to go over it with them. Also the President was'nt even in town when this happened and was'nt back for a few days after it happened. Hope this clears this issue up.
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