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Post by 2Truck on Dec 4, 2003 12:26:58 GMT -5
From looking at all the fighting over the types of responses and radio transmissions it is my feeling that things are not going to change in the county. When someone from outside the area tries to introduce a new idea to his brother (or sister) firefighters in the county he is looked down upon. Hell even if you are originally from the area and only run there once in a while you are looked down upon. It's sad to think that the people that you once respected and looked to for gaining knowledge from would do this. This whole topic over whether or not to run emergency or not, nothing will happen because peoples heads spin when they hear *beep-beep-beep* from their pager. There are officers in the county that not only don't have the guts to change things, but are also clueless about being an officer. Granted I have strong roots in the fire service in Bradford County, I have also run in a few parts of the state and have witnessed many different levels of officership. Sorry to say, that SOME (not all of the officers in the county are the worst in the state. If you just listen to the radio you can't help but laugh sometimes at how these people sound or witness the decisions that they make on the fireground. I realize that there are probobly going to be some ticked off people after they read this but, OH WELL! Things are NEVER going to change in Bradford County. There are too many "good ole boys" around that think that things should still be done like they were back in the 1960's and 70's. Times are changing people, it's time that we wake up and smell the roses and change with them before we get left any further behind then we all ready are in the county.
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Post by chief322 on Dec 7, 2003 11:07:11 GMT -5
Jamie;
I just don't see it that way. Does the "good-ole-boy" network exist here, sure. Has it changed since the 70's and 80's, absolutely. 10 years ago, respective leaders in our mid-county area didn't realize that a bridge on a major state highway crossed the Susquehanna. 5 years ago who would have known that the tiny borough of Rome would be supplying the tiny borough of Monroeton with 5" and with a full size class A engine. Again, 5 years ago, who would have thought either department would have been 5" capable.
Being an insider who went outside and came back, I have taken my learning experiences and applied them where applicable. I feel I am highly respected by my peers and that respect is very mutual. Yes, I have experieced a lot from the outside, however I also admit that there are those here that do know more than me. In fact, I would put just about any CFO up against anyone in the same capacity from outside "our" box.
Part of working and living outside our little neck of the state means applying what is known and learned to the atmosphere that exists here. Some will work, others won't. Being able to adapt to the scenario is what gives us the fine line.
When I came back in the "box", I kept my knowledge and experiences to my company. We changed some things and operated in our own area. Some things caught on and moved on to other areas of the county, some didn't. I have taken some things learned from other county departments and incorporated them into our operations. I don't question what will change, but when will they change. Change is happening. If you look at the minute first instead of the big picture, it is happening.
Hang on, my brother, becasue it is happening.
Tim
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atpd2
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by atpd2 on Dec 8, 2003 11:33:16 GMT -5
Must have had a bad experience on a trip home. I fully understand your frustration at times, I've been there myself, however you need to understand alot of the non-firefighting dynamics of volunteer fire companies.
1. Funding is always and issue and therefor you don't always have all the equipment you need, think you need or want (There is a difference).
2. Change takes time, especially if the need for change is not seen. The old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. Training is always an issue. Unfortunately some people won't train or they don't think they need to train, or in some instances the training just isn't there for them. There are always job and family considerations, especially as you grow older which brings me to my next point:
4. The membership of our fire companies is getting older and the older you get, the more difficult it is to convince them that change is needed. If it has worked for them for years it is difficult to show the need for change.
Now for paragraph 2 (I love addressing things point by point)
5. Yea, things do sound pretty bad on the radio sometimes. Alot of this comes from excitement which comes from lack of confidence which comes from lack of experience and training. You'll notice I didn't call anyone stupid. If you belong to a smaller, less active department the experience just isn't there and it takes longer to obtain. Think about how you felt at your first working structure fire.
6. While I don't know you personally, you might be coming on a little strong with the people back here. If you show up to training, a fire or whatever with your leather helmet, leather boots using fire station jargon here, some of the people are going to resent that. Couple that with your young years and perceived lack of experience it's going to take some work on your part to gain the respect you desire.
7. Don't knock the old timers ( I think that's what you mean by "good ole boys") because they're the ones that can keep you out of trouble. Learn from them and maybe they can learn from you. You have the energy, youth and desire to make things better. I can remember when the big controversy was whether or not to set up the hosebed to lay a single or dual 2.5 inch line. The dual set-up won out, but it was quickly replaced by whether or not we should use 2.5 inch or 3 inch line. 3 inch line won out. Then the big one, 5" line. Then box alarms (boy was that a fight). My point is, all of these things came about and we are better for it. Some of your ideas will also pan out. Be patient.
8. There are places not as up to date as Bradford Co. We're not the best maybe (but that's always relative) but we're not the worst. The importent thing is for your Company or personal goals to be one of slow steady improvement is all aspects of the fire service. Hang in there kiddo, things are looking up. Say hi to Kremer for me.
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Post by Skip18810 on Dec 9, 2003 15:00:31 GMT -5
I love it!! This is too good for me not to jump into! Imagine, a young firefighter who wants to change things NOW. Thats a good thing for all of us "Good Old Boys". I am one of them. I'm good at some things, I'm definitely old, and my wife tells me I still think like a boy. Kieth did a really good job on his reply, but I'd like to add more to the discussion. Since you mentioned the 60's we should start with what the Bradford County Fire World was like then. Some of the numbers may not be exact , because its hard to remember back 38 years, but here goes: There were 15 firedepartments in the county. Some of them were pretty well equipped for the time, while others had very little. There were at least 7 different answering points for phone call reporting fires. There were 3 24 hr. dispatch centers and many 10 phone systems. There were no preconnected hoselines in the county, except for booster lines. The progressive departments had a few MSA rebreathers for SCBA. You had to have a note from God in order actually wear one in a fire. You simply did not have breathing apparatus to fight fire with. If you were in a "rich" department you wore cotton duck coats (not waterproof) 3/4 length boots, a fiberglas helmet (later replaced by aluminum) and cotton gloves for winter. Definitly no hoods. Poorer companies had heavy rubber raincoats. For the most part all the firefighters lived or worked in a town. You pretty much had to hear the siren to know there was a fire. Some areas had the ten phone system so some members got phone calls. Kieth already mentioned the hose and box alarm issues. Many rural departments didnot have tankers, or if they did it was only one small tank. There was no Chief's association to even try to set policy and discuss matters. That was a 1980's thing. There was one ladder truck in the county. A certified fire course might be held someplace in the county once every three or four years. The Bradford County School at that time did not always employ certified instructors, although the people they used that weekend were usually very good. A structure fire in an area more than two or three miles from a station most often burned to the foundation. In fact departments returning from such fires would be proud of themselves if there was water in the tank. It meant they didn't waste much water. If I counted correctly that amounts to 13 major changes and improvments for all the county departments over the 38 years. That's one major change every 2.9230 years. That still doesn't sound to impressive until you consider all of those changes involved major battles. Like Kieth said, change does not come easy. Oh by the way, if you think that Bradford has some of the worst officers you need to travel some more. From experience of working all over the state I can truthfully say "you ain't seen nothin yet." The history lesson of change does not mean I think that everything is great. I DO NOT! There are many things that need to be improved, and for many of them the sooner the change comes the better. All of this leads me to a challenge for you young guys. Keep bucking for change. Thats the only way to get the job done. You can't just talk about it, you have to show people that the changes you want are beeter than they way things are now. Somebody has to go out, learn about new things, adapt them to work in our area, and then teach it to others. It takes a lot of work, time and commitment. It will have to be the "Good young Folks" to do that. BGo get certified as a FF I or better. Become an instructor, and then work at it. Its a scarey situation when the state is pushing for certified fire companies and we can't get anyone to be a certified firefighter. Thats what's coming for you young folks. Hey, should certification be a discussion topic? Well this old boy is tired typing. I need to take my nap Keep posting all
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Post by 2Truck on Dec 9, 2003 17:13:23 GMT -5
Well it seems like I've stirred the pot pretty good. I'm not going to change my comment's I'll stand by them, but let me do some clarifying. The "good ole boys" that I am refering to are the older generations that are completly against change and if any kind of change is brought up by someone they are punished for doing so. Skip, Tim and Kieth I have complete respect for all of you and many other senior firefighters and officers in the county and hope to continue to gain knowledge from all of you. For the certification process that Skip was talking about, I AM certified FF1 and am looking to get my FF2 in the near future. But that is a whole nother topic that I'll have to bring up at a future time. Just to reiterate I'm not trying to down play any of my comments I'm just trying to clarify them. Keep posting everyone I'd like to hear what more have to say. PS. Thanks for the history lesson Skip.
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Post by chief322 on Dec 9, 2003 20:37:21 GMT -5
Jamie; By what I have learned from outside the box, Monroeton would qualify to have an engine and wagon, but how do you think that would float w/ the Chiefs' Association. Remember this is the same group that says this county has brush trucks, although some idiots still insist on brushwagons What kind of looks would I get if I told my next in engine to hook the humat? Vise-versa, walk into La Casa Grande 32 and ask to see their water transfer device! They will probably tell you it is next to the left handed crosslay stretcher (used only for left handed personnel; all other crosslays are setup for right-handed personnel.) ;D Change is happening, slowly but surely, and WE are part of it. Hell I can remember a time when I had to ask permission to don SCBA, or enter an obvious offensive fire. Attack lines were only ordered pulled by THE CHIEF and the standard was the red line, no question. It is happening my brother, only at our speed, but it is happening! By the way, just because your numbers are dyslexic to the real company, doesn't mean you aren't loved! Tim
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Post by 911wacker on Dec 11, 2003 1:38:00 GMT -5
Well as far as change, it occurs every day. These changes are so suttle that you don't notice until you think back a few years as Skip and Keith illustrated so well. I can tell you from only 12 years of experience that change will happen if you present the "old timers" with information, not attitude (no disrespect) and give them time to take it all in. I will bet you my silver dollar that most of those "good ole boys" don't keep up on new training and tools because they did it all 20 + years ago and believe that they did their share of learning, besides experience is the best teacher. Just a few examples of improvements in the few years I have been in the fire service are: 1. thermal imagers 2. class "A" foam use 3. PASS devices integrated into SCBA (some with heat detectors, not to mention the use of newer light weight cylinders) 4. larger more versatile trucks with greater capabilites (pump sizes, hose loads, tank sizes, A/C, etc.) 5. Bunker gear made with better, lighter material ........ and we could keep going!!
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Post by 911guy on Dec 11, 2003 11:04:08 GMT -5
Far be it from me to speak for 23Truck, as he is WELL able to speak for himself, ( ) but what I got from his posting had less to do with APPARATUS/EQUIPMENT in all of it's various forms, and more about the ATTITUDES and BEHAVIOR of people that is hard to change. Hell, I'll be the first to admit (as a non-fire person) that as 911 Coordinator, I am set in my ways on some things - just ask 911wacker , who I believe correctly pointed out that perhaps the best way to make change happen is to work WITH and SHOW improvements and better ways, rather than to try and shove it down someone's throat. That being said, I also applaud and echo Skip's remarks about listening to our younger generation (does that still include me???) rather than automatically dismiss their fresh ideas as radical or nonsense.
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Post by 911wacker on Dec 13, 2003 18:07:15 GMT -5
Jeff, I think you are on the bubble now when it comes to old/young. ;D The key word here is "progressive", if the fire service can continue to progress forward we have her licked folks. It is true that some places buck new technology and refer back to "tradition", young guys like myself and 23truck are what keeps the evalution of change going in the fire service. Granted most of our departments do not have the resources to buy all the new toys or be over-equiped, but a little at a time we make slow progress towards the ultimate goal - BETTER PROTECTION OF THOSE WE SERVE!! I can relate to 23trucks frustrations from my old "home" department, too many old timers wanting to buck the change. Something funny has happened though, most of them are in favor of things a few of us wanted to do 5 or so years ago now!! Like I siad before, be persistant and show them, paper facts are like alien words too many of them. "if you build it, they will come" ;D
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Post by Robert Repasky on Dec 16, 2003 22:41:22 GMT -5
I hope I'm not too late to jump in on this. Everyone has some great input here, especially Keith and Skip, who I must say with the utmost respect, are the Good ole boys to me. You seem upset that you're ideas and plans are disregarded right off the bat. I must say with the attitude in your post, I wanted to stop reading right there and then. The Good ole boys deserve your respect more than anyone. They created what you are complaining about today. Without them, you would have nothing to female dog about. When was the last time you listened to what they had to say? I’ll bet with your attitude the way it sounds, they tune you out every time you open your mouth. Like Jeff said, try having a conversation with them. Explain to them all the points you’re trying to get across. I said have a conversation, meaning you listen as well as talk. I won’t even rehash all the changes I’ve seen over my 20 years “officially” in the fire service. I say officially because I had the opportunity of growing up in the fire service, but I couldn’t join until I turned 18. Yes, my father was a “Good Ole Boy” and I wish everyday he was still here so I could have a conversation with him about changes. What he would like to see changed as well as what I would like to see changed. I’m not saying you don’t have a right to speak your peace; I’m just saying open your ears before your mouth sometimes.
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Post by canton1 on Dec 17, 2003 1:08:14 GMT -5
ROB, As always you are LATE and you are one of the Good Ole boys. hahahahahahaha Well as a not GOOD OLE BOY, I think we are ALL needed to make the fire service a better organization. I have battled with the Younger (canton2) and the older (the old canton1) and I can say that is what makes us such a great department. WE all have to have the right to speak our peice and still be friends the next day. If you keep your opinions to yourselves how will we ever get better. Lets all work together and make the entire group better. Hell, even ask Jeff which is old, I argue with him to
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Post by EngTrk on Dec 17, 2003 9:27:05 GMT -5
It's never to late to post. ;D Everyone's opinions sound great. I think that 23Truck brings up a good subject. It sounds like however that some took offence to it.I am originaly from bc fire. I moved south about three and a half years ago. It is a hole diffrent atmosphere here. Things tend to change sometimes so quick it is hard to keep up. So I can kinda relate to what he is saying.
More or less no mater where you go their will be the "good ol' boys" and the "young bucks".Robert does brings up a good point.If you "speak" they will "listen". But that should go for eithor side. Speeking on behaf of the younger generation of the fire service yes it is frustrating when we come up with new ideas it seems they get shot down so quick.
Yes the older guys bring up good points also that we should listen to and take in to conseideration. However some are open to change but it seems like the majority of the time they can't quite understand why things half to be done diffrently.A lot of the time all ya hear is "Heck they worked 20+ years ago why can't they work now". Truth of the matter is change is happening in some areas quickly and in others not so quick.For the slower ones yer just going to halfto grin and bare it. However it happens or whenever it happens... Now or next week or next month. It will happen.
Just by reading all the posts it sounds like things are progressing quite well. Mabye just not fast enough for some. Keep up the good posts. I can't wate till christmas break to be able to come up and run with the boys at atvfc.
Stay safe and be good to each other.
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