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Post by chief322 on Feb 8, 2004 9:47:44 GMT -5
Here is an interesting photo story that has raised some safety & operational concerns from numerous "Monday morning quarterbacks" (Kinda like us). cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=25718 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now I am biased as the tower ladder crew are my brothers from La Casa Grande 32. But the questioning of the numerous personnel on a snow laden roof is valid. One of the rebuttal question mentions reference to book-end cuts being made. How many personnel do you feel are required to make an effective bookend cut? Of course we weren't there and don't see the "big" picture, but a photo speaks a thousand words, and there are a lot of things to speak about in these stills. Please feel free to talk about the positive as well as the negative aspects of this type of operation. Tim
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Post by EngTrk on Feb 8, 2004 21:25:14 GMT -5
I am just an engine puke (well for now ;D) and it does seem like their were a lot of roughnecks up their. With out having been their I am not sure what all was going on.
However with what little truckie training and experience I have I dont think that it takes all those people to cut just one or even two holes in a roof. No matter what kinda hole it is( butterfly or bookend).
Some other things to consider are the proper use of ppe. It looks like everyone has it but not all is using it.
Other than that I really can't comment on to much else.I heard that all went well and no one was hurt.
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Post by chief322 on Feb 9, 2004 5:28:07 GMT -5
If the roof crew were doing a vent hole, I would say the roof was overloaded w/ personnel. If this was a trench job (bookend cutting), IMO each trench should have had a 4 man crew (cutter, 2 cleaners & OIC). A single trench again, same crew size.
Trenching operations is a highly labor intensive manuever, that requires fast action, good decision making & a strong will from the IC.
For the record, even though the Tower was shown in the photos as being in service, the personnel on the roof were from the neighboring engine/squad company. The "truckies" from the Tower were assigned interior ventilation. Good example of commitment by the IC to utilizing all available assets when performing an agressive offensive operation. Another example of not needing a truck to perform truck company operations.
Tim
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Valley2
Junior Member
DUTY...Above Everything Else But HONOR
Posts: 15
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Post by Valley2 on Feb 9, 2004 16:00:22 GMT -5
Tim,
Just my opinion and opinion only, I have been on numerous jobs and been on a busy Truck Co in the City of Salisbury. I see some concerns that I would have and the initial one that stands out to me is the line that is in service on the roof. I never as a Truck Co. would ever or place a hand line in service on the roof. First of all you have the interior crew below you. Thats just a defensive operation with a ladder pipe if thats what your doing. If your doing a defensive operation my feelings are you have no bussiness on the roof.
Trench work is what you make it. An expierenced Truck Co can make it work with 4 as Chief322 said. An officer, a saw man and 2 with hooks and possibly a pick head axe. You need no more then that to complete your job effectively.
There are to many people on the roof unless they are trenching both sides of the of the building at the same time. You may even have one guy doing inspection cuts to see if they have the right place for the trenh but would believe the saw man would take that.
I would say the cut they made was a good cut because the whole is doing what it is supposed to do. However with that much fire I would have Trenched it. That is what the hotel pays insurance for.
Where are the roof ladders? With that much snow footing is a major issue. (Once again on my ladder kick, or should I say a lack there of)
Just looks like alot and too much free-lancing if you ask me.
Todd
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Post by 2Truck on Feb 9, 2004 16:55:32 GMT -5
I got a second hand story about the fire today (although I trust the source, some things may not be true ): End unit of the motel (I know this is true), heavy fire condition encountered by the first in crew in the fire room, the ceiling of the unit collapsed early on into the fire allowing extension into the common c0ck loft. Was told that heavy smoke was pushing out the eaves about 3 or 4 units down the row. Hence the trench cut. Apparently the crews did a good job if they confined the fire to what is burned. After listening to conference by Chief Billy Goldfeder (writes the column Close Calls for Firehouse magazine and numerous other mags) the only comment that I can make goes along with EngTrk in the fact that people are not wearing their full PPE. It appears as though there is fire blowing out the trench cut and people are walking around with no mask on. Doesn't fire out a roof hole mean that there is/was fire impingement on the trusses? Just some thoughts.............
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Post by chief322 on Feb 9, 2004 18:08:14 GMT -5
Todd;
I agree fully that the roof appeared overloaded w/personnel, particularly since they weren't doing a bookend trench cut. I agree with the hoseline, but not in how it is being used as the picture depicts. I have used a hoseline on numerous trench jobs just cracking the nozzle at the trench edge and allowing a fog pattern to fall into the trench, kinda like a water curtain for the advancing fire. When the rolling fire in the loft hits the open void from the trench it goes vertical and the water curtain if you will stops advancement. I would approximate the flow similar to a booster line (30-45 gpm). Yes, ground laddering appeared minimal, but as Jamie stated (and true) the fire was in an end unit. I would have laddered side one, three and four. One was covered by a ladder and the tower had side 4 with the bucket.
As most of the locals here know, I am just as lame when it comes to full PPE on the roof. This is just bad judgement that has in the past almost sent me off the roof. It is unexcuseable and probably will take a severe fall to waken me up. I once lost a man (dazed but not dead) who went through a roof while sounding. THank God he had his mask on and the engine boys found him.
Lastly, I am a firm believer in a roof sector "officer" whose sole job is to monitor conditions. The vent team has there job cut out for them to have to worry about conditions as well. It is for this reason I believe a 4 man crew is needed, even on a 4X8 vent hole.
Good replies and discussion!
Tim
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