Flynn
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Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Sept 13, 2003 10:16:51 GMT -5
Does the county replace out of service apparatus when dispatching departments that run a box card and have next due listed on their run assignments?
Tim
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Post by 911guy on Sept 13, 2003 19:44:53 GMT -5
About a year ago, this was voted on at the fire chiefs meeting. It was decided that automatic replacement was acceptable.
The LONGER answer is that not all box alarms are specific about next due apparatus, just departments. Added to the departments that don't have box alarms and it leads to the same issue I posted elsewhere about standardization.......
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Larry
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Post by Larry on Sept 16, 2003 14:11:40 GMT -5
Jeff, Don't the cad show units out of service? and can that be program to move another or closes unit up for automatic dispatch or box alarms? or when the mapping gets loaded in? Explain what can be done with this down the road, or is it a matter of $$$$$ for programs?
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Post by 911guy on Sept 16, 2003 17:32:23 GMT -5
Yes, CAD can do an automatic substitue. There are at least TWO major things that must happen before that can be a reality:
1) County-wide addressing. CAD will ONLY provide recommendations if it "knows" where the incident is at. Without a verified address, CAD has no way of knowing what it should substitute because it does not even know where in the county the incident is at.
2) A COMPLETE and COMPREHENSIVE list of specific apparatus due on EACH alarm, not just departments. This gets a little involved, as Kim knows since he is assistant CAD administrator. There is a database as long as a hayfield that lists all the first-due for each area, based upon the nature of the incident (incident code). If CAD cannot "find" what is supposed to go, it looks in the database to see what is supposed to go next, based on what you, as a chief, have set up on your alarms. This can be as extensive or as limited as we want it to be. The key here is for EVERY department - whether you have box alarms or not - to give us EXACTLY what you want if the primary unit is not available. Since the addressing part has to come first, we don't need this information "immediately", but now would probably be a good time to start looking at your alarms to see if they are complete enough.
If you have any specific questions about what we need for CAD, don't hesistate to ask me. Once addressing gets done, it will take time to update the database.
One other thing I should point out while we are on this subject.....once addressing is done and CAD "knows" what to send, if you change your box alarm AREAS, it is a MAJOR DEAL to change that. For example, lets say your current box X-1 is for all the streets in Tooney Township. Then, 6 months from now, you decide to split Tooney Township up so that 12 roads are box X-1 and the rest are box X-2. Redrawing the lines in CAD is a HUGE pain! Suffice it to say that if you DO ever get the urge to change, plan on giving us LOTS of time to make the change before implementation.
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Flynn
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Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Sept 16, 2003 17:46:05 GMT -5
Jeff; Quick question on CAD and apparatus.
From what I have gathered from Lancaster County, CAD doesn't recognize combination units such as pumper/tankers and engine rescues, particularly when recommending for dispatch of next due, O.S.S units or units that scratched a call in the allotted time. Another, and we will use my squad as an example, one of its primary funtions is an air unit, however it isn't designated as such. THis could be said of 25R, 3R and 2R.
Is this fact or fiction?
Tim
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Post by 911guy on Sept 16, 2003 20:54:11 GMT -5
OK, now it starts to get a little more complicated. I will answer as best as I can.
When CAD looks for recommendations, it can be set-up one of two ways:
1) Look for the next apparatus of the same TYPE. If the OOS unit is an engine, for example, CAD looks for the next unit of the same type (an engine in this example). This could certainly pose a problem in your scenario, since so many apparatus' are multi-function these days
2) Look for a SPECIFIC unit. Let's say on first alarm 24E1 and 24E2 are due. And for purposes of example, we'll say 24E2 is a pumper-tanker and is OOS. CAD can only recognize it as one type. Now, we can set-up CAD to recognize pumper-tanker as a type of unit, but if we use the example like in #1 above, CAD will look for the next pumper-tanker. Now, do you HAVE to have a pumper-tanker, or just a pumper? CAD has no way of knowing they have very similar capabilities, it is black-and-white. SO, we can tell CAD that on the next-due to look for a specific APPARATUS - let's say 1E2 which for this example is only a pumper. So if 24E2 is OOS, CAD will look and say, well 1E2 is the next in piece listed, so I will recommend that.
For example #2, it will take VERY careful inspection of your box alarm structure to see if a specific piece of apparatus is what should come, or just a TYPE of apparatus. At this time, CAD can NOT be set-up "dynamically", so that if 24E2 is OOS and you SPECIFICALLY want 1E2 as auto response and have not set it up that way, its not just a matter of clicking a couple of buttons and tell CAD to recommend 1E2 until 24E2 is in service - it will do whatever is in the database.
I hope I have not made this confusing. The short answer to your question is - it depends on how specific you want your automatic replacement to be. If I have confused everyone, I will try to explain it a little better. Kim also has an idea of how this works and maybe he could explain it better too?
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Post by Robert Repasky on Sept 19, 2003 14:57:07 GMT -5
Before we get ahead of ourselves by looking into a CAD solution, we need to make sure everyone has their run cards up to date at the 911 center. Most box alarms and run cards have not been updated in years. I know when I went through ours, I found that some apparatus was being requested that no longer exists and some should be changed to request new apparatus like 15L1 and 2Truck1.
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Post by chief322 on Sept 19, 2003 15:31:51 GMT -5
Robbie;
I agree that the box alarms should be updated, probably on an annual basis. However your boxes are rig specific and this is what I question on replacing O.O.S apparatus. Lets say for discussion sake, 12E2 is OOS. Dept. 1 has it listed on a first alarm. Does the county replace it with the next due off the second (say 14Engine), even though 12E3 is available. Furthering this if the 2's are called for, is the first due on the third requested to backfill the engine taken off the second for the first?
Now my boxes are department based. This works fine , as does unit specific (which I prefer), however by CAD this type of assignment will not work. We need to not only look at updating the boxes, but come to a concensous on what type of basis we as a whole are going to use.
Now even though my boxes are based on departments, I have a formula of 1 engine and two tankers per alarm after the first. I do this in case we shold ever ask for a 5th alarm, the dispatchers can pick units, in order listed from the resource area of the box sheet.
Lastly I question, if we are replacingg OOS rigs, why ask the county to put a department on auto response? Why not just ask the county to replace the unit with the next due, even on a local.
You are right though, my friend, we do need to do a lot of work before we jump into CAD, although CAD is the way to go.
"May your boom-section always go vertical!"
Tim
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Post by canton1 on Oct 2, 2003 0:23:50 GMT -5
We do try to replace a unit that is on a box alarm. In all honestly it has alot to do with the nature nad how excited the caller is as to when it happens (right wrong or indifferent).
I always wondered that my self, If you have box alarms why put another department automatic for structure, when they are already on it.
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Post by 2Truck on Oct 5, 2003 11:02:19 GMT -5
To answer your question Tim about combination units the way that Cumberland County lists them is this, if it's a Sqaud (engine/rescue) it's listed in the engine catagory, and also in the tool catagory, a pumper/tanker would be listed in the engine catagory and also the tanker catagory. Get the drift? Listing next due apparatus is something that all should consider doing, instead of trying to think who is closer all you have to ask for is the next 2 or 3 engines/tankers/truck etc... which would pull the next units from a predetermined list for each box.
If anyone would like to see a sample of how a run card is set up for Upper Allen PM me and I'll get one to you.
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Flynn
Full Member
Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Oct 24, 2003 21:18:16 GMT -5
Based on what I have learned at the two radio procedure classes I have attended, given this scenario, this would be protocol, correct.
** 7TA7 is O.O.S. We put 24TA1 on auto call. Dept.2 has a burner and 7TA7 is due on the deuce. 24TA1 is dispatched to replace it, per automatic in place of Monroeton.
Isn't there a problem here?
Tim
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