|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 18, 2006 0:41:45 GMT -5
Some of you who know me know that I feel strongly about this, but what are the rest of your opinions?
Should EMS crews have routine status checks done on scene when they are there for greater than 15 or 20 minutes as a saftey precaution?
I know that most of our services rarely spend greater than 15 minutes on any scene, however there are times we do and it would be nice to know that someone has not forgotten that you are out there!! Lets face it, here you are 2 or 3 providers on a scene with god knows how many drunk, pissed off or high idiots with no police protection trying to help someone, at any given moment we could be caught with our back turned.
This is more of an issue at night. There is at least one dispatcher who will check on us now, but maybe this could be made policy some day. What do you think??
|
|
|
Post by Medic13 on Sept 18, 2006 5:51:22 GMT -5
I don't make a habit of it, but I have checked on EMS a few times when it seems like it's been a little too long.
I do know from my own experience that a long on scene time doesn't always mean something is wrong. Actually, it rarely means something is wrong. Then again, the dispatchers are 15 feet underground in N Towanda Twp, and don't know what's really happening on scene. I guess the reason I'd be against the 15-20min status checks is because it really won't do much good. If someone on scene wanted to harm the crew, it's probably going to happen within the first few minutes, so by the time the 15min alarm comes up, the damage has been done. If it's in PSP jurisdiction, it could be another 15-20min on top of that to get a car out there, assuming they even give priority to an EMS check. I suppose the only thing I think would be worthwhile would be a standard 3min check like that done with PD. By that point, the crew should know what's going on, so if they don't need further checks, they tell county to disregard. If something is wrong, an officer could get there in a reasonable amount of time. All in all, I'm not a big fan of EMS status checks. Unlike police, we don't have to go into scenes we don't think are safe. On top of that, the chances that we'll run into serious trouble on a scene that PD isn't already on is rare. Ultimately, we live with the same risk as police units... if someone out there really wants to hurt us, they're going to find a way and there isn't much we can do about it.
|
|
|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 18, 2006 19:04:29 GMT -5
I guess the reason I'd be against the 15-20min status checks is because it really won't do much good. If someone on scene wanted to harm the crew, it's probably going to happen within the first few minutes, so by the time the 15min alarm comes up, the damage has been done. If it's in PSP jurisdiction, it could be another 15-20min on top of that to get a car out there, assuming they even give priority to an EMS check.
So answer this, how long does a unit have to be on scene before someone wants to check and see what is going on? An hour or two? And even if something has happened, just because the damage has been done does not mean it is a hopeless situation, RIGHT?
All in all, I'm not a big fan of EMS status checks. Unlike police, we don't have to go into scenes we don't think are safe.
This is true, but you can't tell me that you haven't been in this type of situation because a lack of information.
On top of that, the chances that we'll run into serious trouble on a scene that PD isn't already on is rare.
Ok, but several EMS responders have been seriously injured or killed in the line of duty on these very same scenes that you deem as safe
Ultimately, we live with the same risk as police units... if someone out there really wants to hurt us, they're going to find a way and there isn't much we can do about it.
Exactly why I believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
|
|
|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 18, 2006 19:31:52 GMT -5
EMT Tye Brown Age: 33 Date of Death: April 3, 2004 Date of Funeral: TBA Agency: MAST Ambulance, Kansas City, KS Cause of Death: Shot while on duty Paramedic Katherine Malone Age: 30 Date of Death: April 3, 2004 Date of Funeral: TBA Agency: MAST Ambulance, Kansas City, KS Cause of Death: Shot while on duty FF/EMT Brenda Cowan Age: 40 Date of Death: February 13, 2004 Date of Funeral: Agency: Lexington Fire Department, Lexington, KY Cause of Death: Shot while on a call
Flight Nurse Anthony "Tony" Pirraglia Age: 47 Date of Death: January 19, 2002 Date of Funeral: TBA Agency: MEDUCARE - Medical University of SC, Charleston, SC Cause of Death: Fatal shooting
EMT Shawn Matthew Kramer Age: 26 Date of Death: October 10, 2001 Date of Funeral: October 16, 2001 Agency: Western Berks Ambulance, West Lawn/Hamburg EMS, Hamburg, PA Cause of Death: Complications from injuries sustained in the line of duty
This is just a sample, and think to yourself in our county alone how many drug labs have EMS walked into on scene in the last 3 or 4 years!!
|
|
|
Post by 4157 on Sept 18, 2006 20:44:15 GMT -5
On top of that, the chances that we'll run into serious trouble on a scene that PD isn't already on is rare. Not as rare as it seems...
|
|
|
Post by Medic13 on Sept 19, 2006 4:23:01 GMT -5
This is true, but you can't tell me that you haven't been in this type of situation because a lack of information. As far as I'm concerned, I haven't. I've been taught by good medics to have a strong nose for shi... eh, bad situations. The closest I've come to a possibly unsafe scene was the one you and I had in town a few years back... but the suspect was down at gunpoint upon our arrival and officers were in the house. Though the scene certainly had my attention, I really didn't feel unsafe. Every situation is different. I'd like to see a few pieces of data concerning the examples you gave... #1) Was there any dispatch information indicating the scene might not be safe, and/or was there any indication upon arrival that the scene might not be safe. #2) At what point would a status check have indicated a problem, and would they have been helped in enough time to save their lives. I mean no disrespect, but lets see some data indicating that status checks on EMS providers saves lives. There's no reason to give a false sense of security if it really isn't going to make a difference. I'm not disputing that EMS responders are killed in the line of duty... I'd just like to see something showing that status checks are the answer.
|
|
|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 19, 2006 6:00:38 GMT -5
DO YOU REALLY KNOW YOUR PATIENT, WELL ENOUGH TO TRUST THEM WITH YOUR LIFE? Tuesday, August 29, 2006
My partner and I responded to a diabetic call for service.
On arrival at the residence I recognized the house and remembered that the patient is usually unconscious, usually requires D50 and usually is quite friendly once we wake him up.
We were greeted by his mother as had happened before. On this occasion she informed us that the 40+ year old male patient was in the back bedroom.
We approached the bedroom and saw that he was in the back corner between the bed and the wall. He was conscious with a glare in his eye that sent my sixth sense into overdrive.
I called his name and he pushed himself further into the corner. It felt as if we were dealing with a rabid dog.
We backed out of the room and told his mother that we would like her to come outside with us while we called for help from law enforcement. Before going outside I re-entered the bedroom to tell the patient that we were going outside and would be back. I wasn’t sure if he remembered me or could understand me but part of me struggled with just leaving him there. This guy in the past has invited me to his house for breakfast after he get his D-50 - and is known for being a really is a nice man.
While in the room with him in noticed something. On the other side of the room, completely out of his reach, was a gun cabinet. Also, hanging from the gun cabinet was a shoulder holster for a pistol.
This is not anything unusual by any means but what was was that there was no pistol in the shoulder holster!
I immediately told my partner to get out.
I backed out of the room, facing the patient as I left, and took his mother with me.
We awaited the arrival of the police. The first officer on scene did a walk around and decided to wait for more back-up. Shortly four arrived and entered the residence and brought our patient to us.
We treated the patient and again he responded well and again invited me to breakfast following my shift.
No loose firearm was ever located in the bedroom. The patient to this day does not recall any of our conversation nor can he account for ALL of his firearms. He essentially has them in strategic places throughout the residence. I explained to him that from this point on, we will no longer be entering his house unless the police have cleared it first.
The patient said he understood the reasoning behind this.
Our communications center, law enforcement, and several neighboring agencies have been notified of this and hopefully none of us will ever be put in this situation again.
What lesson did I learn? One that I already knew . . . No matter how much you think you know someone, you can’t let your guard down. Thankfully, we didn’t.
WE HEARD THE UNMISTAKABLE SOUND OF A ROUND BEING JACKED INTO A SHOTGUN Thursday, May 4, 2006 While responding on a lifeline medical call we gained entry to the residence via the keys in the possession of our department. The house was dark and quiet. We called loudly to the known occupant of the home, receiving no answer, we proceeded to check the house for the patient. As we started to climb the stairs to the 2nd floor we heard the unmistakable sound of a round being jacked into a shotgun. We yelled loudly at the occupant while scrambling down the stairs and around the corner of the hallway. After a short discussion the occupant, an 80 year old male, realized who we were and put the gun away. The occupant had rolled over on his lifeline activator and had no idea we were coming, just thought he was protecting his home from intruders
articles copied from: EMSclosecalls.com
|
|
|
Post by citygirl on Sept 19, 2006 6:06:38 GMT -5
I personally have done status checks with EMS from time to time, not sure if I was the one you were talking about but, apparently one time I did a status check with a GV crew, the Medic was not happy with me. Me, being me...didn't really give a crap (I learned from the best )and I still continue to do it. If this offends anyone I appologize, but until my "Superiors" tell me NOT to do them, I will. Swallow your pride and live with it!
|
|
|
Post by Medic13 on Sept 19, 2006 6:53:56 GMT -5
articles copied from: EMSclosecalls.com I have no doubt that these situations happen. Neither prove that status checks for EMS are beneficial. Both were resolved using the quick thinking and experience of the providers. I'm more interested in examples of status checks being used successfully (especially in the rural environment), or showing from previous injuries or deaths that a status check would have saved life or limb. I'm not trying to argue... I think this is a great topic to discuss... I'm just looking for a practical reason other than a theoretical increase in safety.
|
|
|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 19, 2006 18:08:25 GMT -5
No hard evidence, but how long does a crew have to be MIA before someone decides they are worth checking on? I never siad this would "save lives", but I do think its a valid saftey concern that needs addressed.
Why do we always have to wait for something bad to happen to someone in our area before we change policy?
[glow=red,2,300]DO WE REALLY NEED ANY MORE REASON THAN THAT??[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Medic13 on Sept 20, 2006 7:21:12 GMT -5
So if we want to prepare for what "might" happen, we probably should enter all scenes in full combat gear with a SWAT team in front to clear the scene. We can never be too safe, right?
What I'm saying is that before we consider making changes, lets look and see if those changes are actually going to make a difference. As politically incorrect as it is to say we shouldn't enhance safety, I feel it's necessary to disagree with something that might just give the crew a false sense of security. We don't have to wait for something bad to happen in our area. Like I said, we can look at tragedies in other areas and learn from them. Research a few of those calls and see if a 3, 10, 15, or 30min status check would have helped the responders. As far as a timeframe, I can't give an answer other than my own opinion. Personally, I start to wonder after about 40-45min because I've never been on scene for longer than 30min or so (with the exception of DOA's). The two times an ambulance has been on scene longer than that, I checked. There are far better changes we could make to enhance safety than status checks. Most of them are made before the tones even drop.
|
|
cpd209
Junior Member
GOD CREATED POLICEMEN SO FIREFIGHTERS WOULD HAVE HEROES
Posts: 21
|
Post by cpd209 on Sept 20, 2006 11:55:54 GMT -5
can status checks be a pain YES, but they are in place for a reason for PD, I think they would also work well in the EMS field as well, things might happen in the first few minutes on scene, but there is that chance that the mother or father of the kid you have been doing CPR on comes home and flips out on everyone at the scene. Yeah it could take PSP 15 to 20 minutes to get there if something happens, but if you know something has happen help is going to be there alot quicker
|
|
|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 22, 2006 8:52:34 GMT -5
What I'm saying is that before we consider making changes, lets look and see if those changes are actually going to make a difference. As politically incorrect as it is to say we shouldn't enhance safety, I feel it's necessary to disagree with something that might just give the crew a false sense of security. The difference is that someone will actually know something is wrong as apposed to it being 4-8 hours later. As far as a false sense of security......I don't see where this would give a crew a false sense of security. Its not like we will be handing out hand-guns and ballistic vests to EMS personnel, nope all we are talking about here is a measly "hey are you ok" over the radio after a predetermined amount of time like 20 minutes. Is it really to much of a bother for this to be done?
|
|
|
Post by Medic13 on Sept 22, 2006 14:24:13 GMT -5
If you feel strongly about it, talk to the appropriate individuals. It's probably better to be discussed by the managers, captains, EMS council, and 911 director. Personally, I disagree with EMS status checks. I have yet to hear much support for them from other providers either.
|
|
|
Post by 911wacker on Sept 22, 2006 20:44:20 GMT -5
Personally, I disagree with EMS status checks. I have yet to hear much support for them from other providers either. So what your telling me is that EMS providers are ok with dispatchers not checking on them...because its not cool or something. Its pretty sad that I have been logged on scene for well over 2 hours before on a routine medical call and nobody had the common sense to check and see if we were ok. Maybe next time it will be you, if you don't care why should anyone else....right? Maybe you'll be the one held hostage or injured that will make people care.
|
|