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Post by SIERRA 14 on Nov 9, 2003 20:58:54 GMT -5
Just a question. I'm not saying there should or shouldn't be. I would just like to know for my own knowledge.
Are there boxes set up for wildfires? If there are I would be more than happy to be of any assistance I could.
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Post by Matt Russell on Nov 10, 2003 15:12:44 GMT -5
This is just so interesting....Tioga County has the same discussion going on right now at the chief's meeting. Here is my $1.50 worth:
Scott I agree not every Station needs filled but, if a company wants a "stand-by" piece in their station then so be it. The officer that requests it has an obligation to provide the citizens of their first due area proper coverage and if that means bringing in other resources then it needs to be done.
Atta Boy Timmy for "thinking outside the box". I've said it before and I'll say it again...when an incident occurs there is a time for "thinking outside the box". Some think it is perfectly fine to have transfer assignments handled by "Dispatcher Discretion" which would be ok but, all too often the dispatcher try's to handle the entire incident hence "the Bradford County Shuffle" when in reality if they had pulled 1 out of county agency the "shuffle" stops. I'm not slamming the dispatcher because in the end they accomplish the same task but, they made more work for themselves. This can be more of an issue in the central part of the county however then if it were me I would pull a company next to the County line in to the center station and then pull an out of county agency. (Please don't send me hate mail over this it's just my opinion and remember opinions are like butt's...everyone has 1 and they all stink!)
Now as for having transfer assignment's on the box? Not sure that I like that one. Let's take Ridgebury for example: If they have a box that pulls Smithfield full company response on the initial alarm then how would you know who to put in Smithfield? Would Dept 3 have to get with Dept 9 to go over all of D-9's box's and figure when they would want cover-up in their own station (station 3)? What I'm getting at here is that putting the cover up assignment on the box is only good for the home department which sometimes the home department really doesn't need a company to cover them up because there are 3 engines sitting on scene with only their manpower being used and I will bet if need be you could pull an engine crew and place them into service for that second call.
Tioga County just implemented that:
1): A "Transfer Engine" WILL consist of a Class A pumper with 5 qualified firefighter's unless it is during the day then 3 and an Officer for a total of 4. (Too many times of just 2 guys or 1 guy with the pumper) If your department is unable to fullfill this assignment in 10 minutes it goes next due.
2): Transfer assignment will be decided by the dispatcher or a Fire Coodinator UNLESS there is a previous directive. I can tell you that unless Canton is working on the box with us (Liberty), they are to be utilized as our cover-up.
3): Cover up assignments will be utilized if 1 of the 2 following catch phrases are transmitted: "all hands working" or "need a second alarm".
Not saying this is the best, it just gives you something to compare to.
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 10, 2003 19:46:08 GMT -5
I would have to agree with my fellow dispatcher on the shuffel, so many of these departments are in close proximity of each other (with a few exceptions). Why if there is 4 departments working at 1 fire do we have 3 or 4 more moving fire trucks around?? I am willing to bet a stand-bye at their own stations would better serve BOTH area's of coverage especially during daytime hours when EVERYONE is in need of manpower.
Some dispatchers think outside the box too, during the Wysox Fire Kim and I brought in Dushore to Towanda, they were fresh and we didn't strip anyone else in the area. Waverly did the same thing during their forest fire a few years back, brought a Engine company from southport down, scipping over a few departments to relieve the shuffle effect. They were critisized by a few for that, actually a smart move on the part of them considering they had most of tioga county as well as all the bordering bradford and chemung county units as well.
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Post by 911guy on Nov 13, 2003 15:21:33 GMT -5
Case in point: Within the last week, an assistant chief called, by phone, to the 9-1-1 center asking what apparatus was supposed to respond to a certain fire, even though the box was CLEARLY specified in the page. This person admitted hearing the box assignment. This is NOT NOT NOT an isolated case.......
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Post by Skip18810 on Nov 14, 2003 17:17:41 GMT -5
OK Folks time to give you some more things to think about while I'm off for HazMat training.
Box alarms can and should provide all of the three things Jeff mentioned: manpower, water and equipment. Well thought out boxes allow an IC to call for what they need, and return the rest. Of course any IC must remember to tell the responding units what they wiish done. There is a facit of Incident Command called logistics that is responsible for looking at this problem and informing IC.
Another part of the Incident Command Sysytem that we don't do well is staging. That means parking apparatus a short distance away from the scene, in a locatiion that allows equipment to move to anyside of the fire. Having a staging area and a staging offiicer allows the IC to have more control as to where resources report when they move on into the scene. Additionally, if there are free units in staging an additional cover up assignment is not needed. If all the first alarm resources are going to be committed at the scence, IC can siimply ask for the next due engine, tanker or what ever from the second alarm. That way the whole second allarm doen't need to be toned out if its not needed.
Do we really need a cover up truck? Some have said that it isn't needed because nobody ever gets a second call in the same fire coverage area. That is simply not true. It isn't common, but it does happen. Within the last two years I know Department 1 had two seperate fire calls come in before they get the trucks out the door for the first call. The worst case happened in Towanda where THREE MAJOR fires burned at the same tiime along with a few minor alarms. If I'm the Fire Chief who is personnaly responsible for fire protection, I don't want to face angry property owner who has a major loss because I didn't think we needed additional resources free to cover his fire.
Actually having trucks in your station depends on where you are and needs to be done. For my Department, having a neighboring department standing by in thier station works. If my station is fifteen minutes away from help, then I better have someone available in my district just in case. This is not a business where we can predict the future.
Now for the "shuffle" If a mutual aid assignment calls for all of a resouce from a station, then of course we are going to make sure there is coverage. Does our alarm system ask for every taanker a company has, or does it leave them one?
If the best strategy is to have all the mutual aid company's tankers resond to the scene, then the company needing a cover up needs to go to a company that has two tankers, so we don't keep shuffling. The same is true of engines or what ever.
We could do that by going out of county, or out of our region of the county.
By the way, I do basically like the Tioga County system.
Well I'm off to chemistry class
Be safe and don't have any "big ones" till I return.
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 15, 2003 9:01:17 GMT -5
Skip I can see you were holding out on us- If you look at most box alarms we currently have in the county, station cover is provided. The problem with this is we dispatch them at the same time as the initial assignment or with second alarm and usually these units respond to the scene instead of the intended destination. Maybe it would be better if county were to hold off for 10 minutes before moving the cover-up units, this would surely create less confusion. As far as depleting resources - we will use tankers as an example. If the department has two - they almost always respond both even if the box or specific request was only for 1 anyway. This shoots the careful planning of the department right in the foot, they most likely figured leaving the second tanker so that department was not uncovered. Hell half the time nobody knows how many tankers are coming until they ask or the trucks show up. I think that every department needs to follow a standard format - not FORM - format. This certianly would create less confusion and provide for much less radio traffic during the "big one"!!!
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Flynn
Full Member
Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Nov 15, 2003 9:18:10 GMT -5
Poor staging, you are kidding right? I am fairly confident that, as an IC with set SOP directives, should Level 1 or Level 2 staging be ordered, they would be followed to the "T". Same goes for the establishment of a manpower staging area during a multi-departmental response (Box). We preach the ICS. We say we do it on every incident, yet we cannot agree on the NFA's version or the NFPA's. You say Side A, I say Side 1. Same philosophy, different terminology. You say truck meaning pumper, I say truck meaning aerial. The list goes on (bottle, tank, cylinder). Until we agree on the same thing, how will it ever work. Case in point: If it smells like shit, looks like shit and feels like shit (Tastes too, for those that are into it) then it MUST be shit. Are we all in agrement here? Tim
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Post by SIERRA 14 on Nov 16, 2003 22:42:23 GMT -5
We preach the ICS. We say we do it on every incident, yet we cannot agree on the NFA's version or the NFPA's. You say Side A, I say Side 1. Same philosophy, different terminology. You say truck meaning pumper, I say truck meaning aerial. The list goes on (bottle, tank, cylinder). Until we agree on the same thing, how will it ever work. Tim Don't forget that there is the version that is used in the wildfire arena. On the National level the NIIMS (National Interagency Incident Management System) curriculum is what is the standard. This is also the standard for DCNR. This curriculum gets pretty involved with all aspects of ICS. There are 6 courses containing 17 training modules to the NIIMS curriculum. It gets VERY, VERY complex. How complex it gets on incidents or events obviously depends on the incident or event needs. You might think of large wildfires as the predominant use for such a complex ICS structure. That is true but in recent years National Incident Management Teams (IMT's) have been called to 9/11 in New York City, Space Shuttle incident, weather events (hurricanes, etc.), planned events and so on. In fact one of my instructors said New York State uses this system to manage Woodstock. So the bottom line is that ICS teams from the wildfire arena aren't just doing wildfires anymore. PA has an agreement with the Forest Service to supply people and resources for wildfires. PA has identified a need to revise that agreement due to all the other incidents and / or planned events they are requested for now. The NIIMS curriculum isn't necessarily better or worse than the others it's just what we (Forest Service) recognize and use as the norm. Here is a link to the National Wildfire Coordinating Groups website. This takes you directly to the NIIMS curriculum if anybody is interested in taking a look at it. www.nwcg.gov/pms/forms/ics_cours/ics_courses.htmAt present time I am qualified to instruct Basic Incident Command System (I-200) through the NIIMS curriculum. We plan to conduct this training for EVERY staff member that works within the Tioga Forest District next spring. I hope to offer a class open to FD's sometime next year as well. Well gotta go get ready for Wildland Fire Behavior Calculations and Supervisory Concepts courses. Be back in a week.
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 17, 2003 19:56:39 GMT -5
1): A "Transfer Engine" WILL consist of a Class A pumper with 5 qualified firefighter's unless it is during the day then 3 and an Officer for a total of 4. (Too many times of just 2 guys or 1 guy with the pumper) If your department is unable to fullfill this assignment in 10 minutes it goes next due. 2): Transfer assignment will be decided by the dispatcher or a Fire Coodinator UNLESS there is a previous directive. I can tell you that unless Canton is working on the box with us (Liberty), they are to be utilized as our cover-up. 3): Cover up assignments will be utilized if 1 of the 2 following catch phrases are transmitted: "all hands working" or "need a second alarm". I like # 1 and 3 - not so sure about # 2 - not all dispatchers think like Fire Officers and not all fire officers think like dispatchers!! ;D I think that we are getting somewhere now!! Terminology that is common would sure help - but most people know what everyone else is saying.
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Post by canton1 on Nov 18, 2003 0:11:59 GMT -5
And we Like going to LIBERTY!!!!!!
They buy food!!!!! ;D
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Post by canton1 on Nov 18, 2003 0:26:35 GMT -5
There are a few departments that want to and try to have Box alarms for this. But, at the county level we do not recognize BRUSH BOX alarms. I guess we could all do them but I see another real headache with people saying that you are not using your boxes as designed. In my opinion they would be alot harder to come up with one as they are even harder to predict then a structure fire.
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Mansfield2
Junior Member
Jim Welch, Mansfield Hose Company Chief
Posts: 23
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Post by Mansfield2 on Nov 19, 2003 14:01:22 GMT -5
You folks are having one heck of a debate over there, this is a great topic anywhere. We have many of the same issues of box alarms in Tioga County. The one thing that was instilled in me many years ago was the other purpose of box alarms was to provide a guide for the "Incident Commander" who may not be a "Seasoned Chief" the box alarm should give any incident commander enough resources to handle an "average incident". Also a recall of units is only a radio click away, get them on the road early. Keep up the good work all!!
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Post by SIERRA 14 on Nov 22, 2003 22:33:37 GMT -5
There are a few departments that want to and try to have Box alarms for this. But, at the county level we do not recognize BRUSH BOX alarms. I guess we could all do them but I see another real headache with people saying that you are not using your boxes as designed. In my opinion they would be alot harder to come up with one as they are even harder to predict then a structure fire. Kim I agree they would be very difficult to come up with (well at least accurately for each wildfire anyway). There are some things that could be done though. For instance in areas of high Urban Interface (or the new buzzwords Urban Intermix), remote locations, fuel types, etc. Three things drive a wildfire - Fuels, Weather and Topography. Out of those the only variable is Weather. Fuels and Topography are normally very constant. I can predetermine fire behavior before a fire starts. Well on paper anyway there is always Murphy's Law. As long as the fuel types and topography are consistent we can calculate flame lengths, rates of spread, BTU's and acreage. Like I said the weather is the issue. We could identify trigger points with the weather if there was a start in predetermined areas. It won't be 100% until accurate weather was obtained from the fire scene or a spot weather forecast. I plan to identify some of these trigger points for certain areas within the District (such as the PA Grand Canyon, etc). FYI - The District was tasked with assessing the entire District for Hazard, Value and Risk last spring. I had somewhat short notice to get this accomplished so consequently I was unable to contact fire chiefs for their input. So I guess we (DCNR) have kind of in a round about way started a box for wildfires. However it doesn't deal with suppression it identified areas of concern. As I said I would be more than happy to meet with any FD on trying to get some idea of what resources they may need for a wildfire in a particular area. It would be very general and subject to the weather. I also determine the fire danger for today and the predicted fire danger for the next day year round. That info is available anytime from the District Office (570-724-2868). I also forward that info to both 911 centers and fire danger rating sign locations. I also have it set up to be displayed on both this board and Tioga Counties board (however we haven't had any real fire weather this Fall yet).
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Post by Skip18810 on Jan 4, 2004 16:27:20 GMT -5
I just learned of a really interesting site you might want to look at. Its Lancasterfire.com. Many of the postings sound very similar to ours, and there is some different stuff also.
Pay particular attention to the Ephrata fire on 1/3/2004. It has an amazing first alrm assignment. I'm not sure we want any quite that big.
Enjoy
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Flynn
Full Member
Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Jan 4, 2004 22:34:26 GMT -5
Skip;
I have been a member of Lancasterfire.com for about 4 years now and yes, they are similar in issues and that is about it. Glen Usdin runs a fantastic site. Lancaster County is full blown CAD. A lot of my references in the regards to CAD are based off this county. Lets compare apples to apples on this one. They utilize PAR, Incident Command, next due, replacing apparatus, and RIT to the hilt. They do this on a county level, through the chiefs' association. In reality, as compared to other counties with the same professionalism, we don't do shit.
Talk is cheap and comparing us to other progressives is even cheaper!
Tim
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