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Post by 911guy on Nov 3, 2003 10:56:26 GMT -5
OK, PLEASE do NOT jump all over me for this one. Kim, Terry, Jim King and I have already gone around on it. As stated many times, I am NOT a fire person. I only see things from the EMS side of the field and from a communications standpoint. This is NOT meant to be a slam to any ONE or ANY organization - it is JUST a question that assumes some things: Assumption 1) Every structure fire is unique by virtue of location, type, accessibility and time of day (manpower). Assumption 2) Every fire officer has their own ideas of how best to tackle a given structure fire, as is attested by other postings on this board. There are probably more, but that will do for starters. ASSUMING that 1 and 2 are correct, then here is my question: IF every structure fire is unique, WHY a "standardized" box alarm? Why not just the host department and then request what you need by first officer on the air like those without box alarms? My question is prompted by several things: 1) For at least 90% of automatic alarms, the mutual-aid gets held at station or cancelled. Yes, if you need them its great to have them ready to go - I get that. But how much ACTUAL time is saved or lost to check the alarm - if its real, it SHOULD be in its early stages, your host company should be the closest and can make initial attack and knock-down, and ask for mutual-aid when you KNOW you have something. 2) VERY FEW ACTUAL structure fires in this county have followed the box alarm to a "T". The vast majority of the time, several things are deviated from (get me just manpower or a 2nd tanker alarm, etc.) and fairly often, things are asked for that aren't even ON the alarm, all the way to 3rd alarm. Yes, I realize that each situation is unique and must be adapted to suit the situation - I get that. Therefore, how can ANY "standard" box alarm work? 3) Box alarms take longer to dispatch than non-box alarms - PERIOD. That includes time to drop tones and time to determine the correct alarm assignment. If fires increase exponentially in magnitude in a matter of seconds, any delay can increase damages. This seems to me like perhaps the biggest single component that I, personally, have against box alarms - that they waste more time than they save. Several fire-savvy people I have talked to agree with that. In all of that, I have probably assumed even more things. PLEASE KNOW that I have NO PROBLEMS dispatching ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that is needed to preserve life and property, but I also believe that an enormous liability and waste of resources takes place many times (in my opinion). Not to worry - I am NOT trying to "cancel" anyone's box alarms! The Bradford County 911 Center is here to SUPPORT the Police, Fire and EMS agencies in this county, not deter them. I will give you what you need to accomplish your important mission. I just wish someone could adequately explain to me what (at least our current) box alarms accomplish? Please consider this just a food-for-thought discussion, not a slam to box alarms. OK. Now I am prepared to get beat-up
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Post by Robert Repasky on Nov 3, 2003 20:56:01 GMT -5
First of all, box alarms do not waste time, they save time. I'll give you the fact that most of the time the mutual aid department is cancelled or asked to stand-by at station, but it's the one time that counts. I can name you several situations just in Sayre alone where the "standard" box alarm has saved time and property. I won't even get into the manpower shortage at times that we all face. What I will do is explain to you how the box alarms came to happen in the first place and what they have done. Box alarms were designed so there was less confusion, less radio traffic, less "guess" work. First, you have another department responding with a piece of apparatus and manpower automatically. The IC knows already that he has this additional piece and manpower coming. The "old days" used to be that the initial department would respond, wait till there was an on scene report, and then request another department for mutual aid. Then while the IC is trying to get things situated at the scene, the tones start out for additional departments to respond, thus, tying up the air and creating confusion. I have had scenes where I can simply say give me a second alarm and it's done. It's called pre-planning! I don't have to stand there and think, what do I need, another engine, a truck, whatever. I just say give me a second alarm and I get what was already planned out well in advance if this particular building that we're standing in front of right now, burning to the ground, people screaming, live wires dropping, someone standing next to your ear asking if you want coffee and doughnuts, etc., was to catch on fire. In the fire service, unlike EMS, pre-planning is key. We can pretty much predict how a particular structure would burn if it came down to it. With that assumption, we can pre-plan for what equipment and manpower we would need to fight that fire. I could go on, but I won't. I hope this explains in its simplest terms, why box alarms are necessary. If not, I would be happy to elaborate. If you want to save time dispatching, take the trailers off the tones, that would save some seconds.... Just my 2 cents.
p.s. When you have an ISO rating done on your department, points are given or taken away depending on the fact that mutual-aid is automatic or it has to be requested. In fact, that exact question was on the application for the federal grants and will probably be on the application for the state grant.
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Post by Skip18810 on Nov 4, 2003 9:33:36 GMT -5
This is a really good topic for us to dicuss on this forum. Box alarms have both positives and negatives and probably the system needs to be tweaked to make it work better. The box alarm system has proved its worth. I can not imagine going back to working without it. There are many studies concerning the manpower requirements to safely operate at a structure fire. The current magic number seems to be 14, and that does not count people used in traffic and crowd control. How many of our departments can provide that many firefighters on the scene in 10 minutes 24hours a day, seven days a week? Many of our actual fires ar e a good distance from the station. I'm not sure the people we serve will accept a response that has an officer drive 5-10 minutes to a scene, survey the situation and decide that we need help from other departments that have an additional 10-20 minute response times. I would not be happy to learn that the necessary resources won't be at my fire for 30 minutes after I reported the emergency. Economics is another factor. With the costs of apparatus today its pretty hard for any department to maintain everything their fire district needs. Having units coming on the first alarm allows us all to spread the necessary equipment costs out over a wider population. That being said, there are some major problems with the system. Most of them come from us responders. Everyone needs to look at their response area, and determine what outside resources are needed to handle a "normal" fire. It might be a room and contents job. What you need is first alrarm, what you need if it gets away is a second alarm, and what you need if everything goes to hell are your third and so on. Most of that seems pretty good in the county. Next we have to use it. This we don't do well. We rarley hear the words "Send me a second alrarm" What we usually hear is the IC asking for specific departments. Why do we list a second alarm reponse if we don't use it? If we don't need everything on that list we can always say "send the next three tankers" The dispatchers can then send 3 tankers. If one of the tankers on the list is out of service, the dispatchers can simply cover it by jumping to the fourth due truck. The IC still gets what was requested, 3 tankers. Dispatching box alarms does take more time. Perhaps we need to look at our dispatch procedures. Do we need to dispatch everything 2 times? Could we dispatch the primary department on the first page, and the whole box on the second page? I don't know if that will work for all of us, but consider it. I'll get off my soapbox now. Be safe!!! Skip
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Post by canton1 on Nov 5, 2003 1:40:46 GMT -5
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Post by chief322 on Nov 5, 2003 18:05:47 GMT -5
Jumping on Robbies and Skips points, I personally tried setting "our "boxes up originally based on preplanning an area. My primary reasoning was for any IC in my dpeartment to request a numerical amount of uits needed, like 3 additional tankers , two engines, whatever was needed. These rigs were listed on the box cards in the order they were to be called for.
This then brings me to my point I have been making about dispatching locals. My box cards have the reference area filled with the next due 10 or more brush units, in order I would request them. Same goes for engines, tankers, rescues etc. The thought process on this was for an IC even on a local, if needed, all that should be requested is the numerical amount of pieces, for that geographical area (Box #).
The IC shouldn't have to be looking at an incident and play a political correctness game and figure what department to call for, conversely when asking for "two additional whatever" the dispatcher shouldn't have to be put into the position to do the same.
I would much rather spend the extra minute in dispatching air time, than taking the same minute to figure who I want while on scene, especially when you are looking a multi-tasks.
Also, like Skip says, and I have questioned. WIth boxes, out of service units would automatically be covered by the next due on the box assignment.
I hope more discussion is done on this!
Tim
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Post by GVEMS11 on Nov 6, 2003 11:35:04 GMT -5
This discussion has raised some interesting dispatch questions, namely the appropriateness of trailers and second dispatches. These seem to be unique to Bradford County. They are not used in Chemung, Tioga (NY), Wyoming, Luzerne, Lackawanna, or Susquehanna Counties. Dispatch is the dept. tones and then the verbal, with a repeat but no repeated tones. The trailers indicate fire, medical, or MVA, but this information is stated 10 seconds later in the verbal anyway. Maybe heavy sleepers need the repeat of the tones to realert their pager, but other than that.... ?? Ex: *tones* Luzerne County to Medic 2, 123 Main Street in Plains, female patient with respiratory distress. County repeating, Medic 2, 123 Main St. in Plains for female patient with respiratory distress." The address and nature are given twice in case you miss it the first time around, but it is one continuous dispatch without trailers or a repeat of the company tones. Covering Chemung and Tioga (NY) with GVEMS, and working in Luzerne and Susquehanna counties, this system seems to work fairly well from my experience, and there is not "wasted"(?) air time playing a plethora of tones. My 1.5 cents.
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Post by 911guy on Nov 6, 2003 20:32:08 GMT -5
Trailer tones have been praised and condemned. Although I know everyone would "get over it" if we didn't use them, many have said that they like to have their mindset in place when they hear the trailer..... I would gladly accomodate whatever the agencies we serve prefer, as long as it is county-wide and not just for one or two or three.
As far as two sets of tones.......that has been debated several times over the years. The last time it was brought up (discontinue two sets of tones), the response was akin to taking their birthdays away......
Just one other point about 2 sets of tones - sometimes we have to page from 2 different towers to get pager activation.
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Post by 911wacker on Nov 7, 2003 0:05:17 GMT -5
Ummm.................
I would have to agree with the great wise one Skip on the time issue, I'm thinking that 20-30 seconds wasted in the dispatch would save us 5 minutes or more in the longrun.
Those damn trailer tones can go too, Jeff already knows how I feel about those things BIG BIG waste of time and effort. And as long as we are going that far, does anyone really need a siren anymore??? On a standard box alarm that extra tone would save another 10 seconds or more!! Hey Chiefs how many of your guys don't have a pager these days?? I'm willing to bet that you won't miss it, some LOCAL departments have already done away with their siren and do just fine!!!
Personaly - Box alarms are great and usefull, but not every department keeps them updated. <<<<<< This can become a big problem when the OIC has no clue what is coming, BUT they can always ask dispatch what is on the road if need be. Maybe Jeff should mandate a yearly review of box alarms for each department, then we can ensure that they are kept fairly up to date and acurrate??? What do you think? This would also help officers stay familiar with them and make sure its what they want!!
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Post by canton1 on Nov 7, 2003 0:57:45 GMT -5
hey hey hey...... DOnt stop doing tones TWICE!!!!!!
I cant get my old decrepide but out of bed during the day. I hardly hear it then.---Trailer tones who cares, Not me. Siren, WHo cares not me. I bet you if you saved the money that the electricity cost to run it everyone would have a pager
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Post by Firegirl on Nov 7, 2003 6:42:23 GMT -5
Geez - is Kim admitting to getting old???
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Post by canton1 on Nov 7, 2003 7:40:19 GMT -5
If I said old it was a accident!!!!!!! Cause we all know that it is not true
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Post by Matt Russell on Nov 7, 2003 21:41:27 GMT -5
Why standardized bax alarms? ? Ever call we go on and every department is unique so why standarized dispatch? Jeff, you answered this yourself when you made a comment in another post about standarized dispatch....simplicity. Standarized dispatch is great for dispatchers and the majority of field providers but, there will allways be that crowd that wants things done special for them, the fire service is no different. Let me put it in a different perspective for you that no one has really hit on. First I must say that you were for the most past correct when you stated most fires are unique in their own way but that's where box alarms help. As an officer and an IC pulling up to the scene of a "worker" multiple things need to be assessed - how big a building (looks can be deceiving), how many stories, is anyone home, is anyone still inside, if so where, can we save them and if so how, what is the fire load, what is the construction, what kind of fuel does it have, where is the fire at, how advanced is it, can we save this, interior attack, exterior attack, does it appear suspicious, first in piece goes where, second in piece goes where, how are we gonna attack this, first crew, second crew, etc, . While rapidly doing this the IC must also think "do I have eneough appropriate apparatus and or manpower coming" this can be answered and acted upon easily IF box alarms are set up and maintained. If the answer to the question is "nope" then the response is "County I need a second alarm" or third or fourth etc. IF box alarms are not set up and maintained the potential to sound like Beavus or Butthead exists(uuuuuhhhhhhh yyyyeeeaaahhhhh give me uuuuuhhhhhhhh 1 engine from uuuuuhhhhhhh). As Timmy Flynn would say "smell what I'm shoveling"? Box alarms may not make it a total cake walk for dispatchers ( which I'm sure they make it worse for a telecommunicator) but as for an IC it free's up some time to accomplish other things. Let alone as units starts arriving they all want to know "where do you want me, what do you want from this crew, hey chief we are on scene oooopppppssss ain't got any water gotta go to the fill site" etc etc etc. Now what do you think about EMS box alarms ;D?
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Post by 911guy on Nov 9, 2003 8:48:45 GMT -5
Well, I've had time to read and digest all these postings. I think they are FANTASTIC! Here are some of my preliminary conclusions, based on the postings: 1) The suppression of all fires require, at bare minimum, three things a) Manpower/personnel b) Water c) A way to put the water on the fire (pumps) 2) Box alarms are very effective in providng letter "a", above 3) Perhaps the weakest area of box alarms, which most people that have posted agree on or refer to in one way or another, is poorly planned or overly complex alarms and lack of familiarity with one's own alarms. Taking #3 a bit further, I have contemplated this one as it relates to the problems I have seen with box alarms and this is what I see; Some departments have too many box alarms. Having a vast diversity of alarms for every potential structure, relate it to nearby water supply (if any), throw in some other apparatus-related thoughts and you can come up with the "perfect" box alarms - on paper. Now let's think about how this relates to the REAL world. It seems to me that boxes are deviated from so often for at least one of two reasons: 1) Unfamiliarity with one's own boxes. This ties to the complexity issue. The more quantity of box alarms you have, the less likely you are to remember what the hell comes on each one, especially when it goes to 2nd and 3rd. 2) Poorly planned box alarms. Yes you know what's on the box, but 75% of the time, it isn't what you want so you deviate from it. If you are ultimately going to get the same departments and 90% of the same apparatus no matter what, why have a dozen different alarms? Just one last thought (for now) is cover-up - what some have called the "Bradford County Shuffle". Can these be built into the box, so that air time and thought doesn't have to be wasted? It should be low priority - get people, water and equipment to the scene and then, maybe 20-30 minutes into the incident, get cover-up in place. I await everyone's thoughts.....
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Nick
Full Member
OIF Veteran 2006
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Post by Nick on Nov 9, 2003 10:12:11 GMT -5
I have issues with "The Bradford County Shuffle". I've dealt with it for 9 years now, both in the field and the comm center. Explain to me why every fire dept thinks it needs another one standing by for it? There are some cases where extended on scene times and long distances are involved that make it a good idea. However, there are also far too many times when Dept A, who is assisting Dept B, wants Dept C to cover for them. On a decent-sized incident, the number of departments assigned to it literally doubles because of all the cover up requests. That is ridiculous. #1 - Not everyone needs cover up. A request for auto dispatch of mutual aid will suffice. #2 - Dept A will most likely leave to cover their own incident when it gets toned out. (we both know it so don't deney it!) #3 - How many times to fire depts in Bradford County have multiple calls that aren't weather related?
It is a huge waste of resources to have every dept relocating someone else every time there is a multi-department response to an incident. Maybe that should be considered in the pre-planning?
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Flynn
Full Member
Often imitated; Never Duplicated
Posts: 45
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Post by Flynn on Nov 9, 2003 19:50:45 GMT -5
I tried having an automatic transfer company dispatched on the initial alarm (box assignment) a few years ago. I spent more time fighting "fires" than the actual incident.
I had Sullivan 57 on for an engine transfer, manned. I had a verbal agreement w/ Chief Hope that his engine would respond only after a minimal crew had been established and only a maximum crew would respond (No POV's). Seeing as they weren't on any of my box assignments (other than transfer) and I wasn't stripping a geographical area, it made sense. This coupled with the fact that I had an engine w/ 1000' of LDH and a full crew that was fresh sitting in my station, should I need an overhaul crew, made it a cakewalk.
I heard more female doging from other local departments, the county dispatching staff, and even my own. No one could fathom having to bring "outsiders" in that early in an incident.
Auto transfers work, they are not a waste of time or resources, depending on how you run an incident. They are kinda like having a forward staging area, with destination unknown.
Tim
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