Flynn
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Post by Flynn on Nov 29, 2003 17:05:49 GMT -5
I was hanging the christmas lights today when a local department got tapped out for a tree across the road. About 4 minutes into the "incident" I heard siren coming into town. Now I live on Rt. 220, but have a view of Rt. 414 from my front lawn. I see this Red light POV fly past the intersection of 414/Turnpike (I am sure he was doing the posted 45 mph ). Not two minutes later another redlighter doing the same thing. What exactly is the criteria for emergency/non-emergency response of the FD? Did the county Chiefs Association set anything up, or is it the typical lip service response of "self-monitoring"? This is all BS! Tell me what an emergency response is warranted for a non-emergency call? We as a whole must agree on what we are going to run hot to and what we aren't. Lets also do away with those catchy phrases, you know.... 1. Reduced Rate 2. Under caution 3. Expedite These three phrases add confusion to emergency/non-emergency. Lets play the K.I.S.S. game on this one. Lets start being a solution to the problem instead of a big part of it. For the record, I am notyifying the department Chief about what I saw and question the reasoning, just to show that I am not trying to make a public spectacle out of this! Tim
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Post by strangeone on Nov 29, 2003 18:17:31 GMT -5
Tim got your note and those that were pointed out will be dealt with and thanx for bringing it to my attention as 2 weeks ago we had another incident and I instituted a new department policy that states tree down calls will be responded to --but in a non-emergency mode unless there is confirmed emergency involved with it--entrapment --ect... red and blue lights ok but no reason to go wild with speed.
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Flynn
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Post by Flynn on Nov 29, 2003 18:35:59 GMT -5
Chief (Don); Please understand that this wasn't directed specifically at Dept. 22 or your operations. I can point at my own too (Nov. 13th - app. 1830 hrs. south of boro) as just as guilty. This is a county level problem that shuld first be addressed and stressed at that same level. I applaud your policy, lets just hope you will be albe to enforce it. Maybe, you could show this policy to your eastern neighbors. A little goes a long way ! Tim
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Post by strangeone on Nov 29, 2003 20:04:10 GMT -5
County Chiefs what is your policy on tree down situations ?? maybe we should get a standard for these type calls.!!!!
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Post by firedude on Nov 30, 2003 12:22:08 GMT -5
ok now lets look at it this way..what if a non fire company related person comes flying around a corner and does not see the tree and hits it and dies??then would you all be CRYING about the speed or would you say something else because the fire companys would be in court over it....besides i dont wanna sound like(tim you know who)in the law book,not the chief assc.laws,that when the tones are activated( use common sense)there is (NO) speed limit..so if you all have a problem with the speed of other people dont go to the chief assc.or the fire chief go to the people who make the true laws......
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Post by franklindale4 on Nov 30, 2003 12:51:28 GMT -5
This goes along with the above mentioned. If you want fire chief ass. to implement a set of standards for these so called "BS" calls you better not have county drop the tones. every time the tones are dropped it is an emergency call. my suggestion would be to have county get ahold of one of the chiefs to do chief 1,2,or3 contact communications. or even better let the state handle all traffic control incidents, trees down or non reportable accidents and traffic hazards. Then on top of it if you are not happy with the pa laws contact someone that can do something about it because i hate to be the bearer of bad news but the chiefs association cant do anything. no one intends to speed when going to a call but we have all done it and we can acredit that to addrenaline. as for strangeone if you are going to implement something why not let everyone in the department know because i didnt know that. and dont give me the exccuse about not comming around you know where i live and you know how to get ahold of me. as for me you wont see me unless it is a confirmed structure fire or accident with injury. this is for all you crybabys out there go ahead and get a tissue because it sounds like you need it.
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Post by 911guy on Nov 30, 2003 13:37:13 GMT -5
Far be it from me to get involved in intra-departmental issues, but I DO have some input on the tree down/non-emergency issue: At the last fire chief''s meeting, we decided to go through the new revised communication's SOP's as a committee. Amongst other things, we are going to TALK ABOUT setting up non-emergent incident types - what Sullivan County (and others) call "Still alarms" As mentioned, the fire chief's organization does not have "authority" to dictate policy - seems no one has that authority for FD in PA (unlike licensed EMS). At any rate, I would hate to see this whole thing deteriorate into a grudge match It is, as Tim said, about "being a solution to the problem instead of a big part of it." The red light/no red light discussion has been brewing for some time in the EMS area........Good dispatching SOP's ARE also a part of it.
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Flynn
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Post by Flynn on Nov 30, 2003 14:34:49 GMT -5
I personally don't care if the tones have been hit or not. Monroe borough has a posted speed limit on both the major state highways within the borough limits. I have warned the fire chiefs of both municipalities that the next step is to notify PSP Towanda with the vehicular description. For the record, I am not crying about a wacker response to a BS call. When one of you all strike a child or cause property damage within the confines of the borough and its posted speed limit, lets see who does the crying. I highly doubt that immunity will cover that.
Lastly, you are right, the Chiefs' association has no precedent over local company matters. But the local chiefs do and when they get a set of balls and force those that think they are above the law to comply with the standards and policies set by both the local and the state agencies, then maybe this question wouldn't be discussed.
Give me one good reason, not an excuse, why we should be running hot to these type calls!
Tim
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Post by firedude on Nov 30, 2003 19:15:01 GMT -5
tim,i didnt say anything about the chief assc.have the rules over the fire company what i was saying is that the STATE law says there is no speed limit once the red light and siren is activated as long as you use common sense........you might think they were speeding from your house but remember i live a little closer to 414 and i watched both of them going by(i was outside taking the lite off my van),and they looked like they were both going the speed limit....
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Flynn
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Post by Flynn on Nov 30, 2003 20:13:08 GMT -5
Chief;
You say tomatoe I say tomato. Does it really matter at which vantage point this was observed, although I am quite sure that 125 yards matters. The point is that if these two individuals, who consider thesmselves officers, can't separate a non-emergency call from an emergency, what kind of faith should I put in their decision making.
Also, I would recheck the state reg's regarding the safe operation of fire apparatus. If you check the DOT standard as well you will find that we (fire apparatus) are permitted 10 mph over the posted speed limit. Secondly, as much as the state does give a lot of leeway with emergency response, hit something and all bets are off. Better yet, hit one of my children or my neighbors and you had better hope the state steps in.
I am still waiting for a logical reason to run hot on tree down calls, pump details, wires in the road, trafic control calls.
Hey, I like being a wacker as much anyone. But a what point do we say enough is enough?
Tim
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nt2
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Post by nt2 on Nov 30, 2003 20:37:22 GMT -5
this is just my opinion! maybe this doesn't fit this discussion but... there is entirely to many people running red lights in departments. some one correct me if im wrong, but i thought red lights were for chiefs, fire police captians, (which i dont agree with), and rescue captians. I believe there are departments that all of the line officers have red lights and sirens. If you dont fit the above criteria you should be running blue lights.
ps,this only pertains to fire personal not ems.
AGAIN JUST MY OPINION.
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Pat
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Post by Pat on Nov 30, 2003 21:57:44 GMT -5
Isn't this the same group of people asking for the boeing aircraft to investigate smoke on the mountain the other night??? It seems to me we have a common thread, to use some common sense here, and I hunch that will work in most cases. We all know of members (we all have at LEAST 1), that have a severe misconception of what they are really doing. A discussion at the Chief's Assn. will probably get as far as the "NOT ME" folks and die. Driving policies should be enforced by the chief officers within the department, and if the officer(s) are the guilty party, call the SP.
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Post by strangeone on Nov 30, 2003 22:17:13 GMT -5
No finger pointing but as franklindale 4 states it could be a call that officers call the com center as often happens for a missing person or even a lab problem perhaps I mispoke when I asked the chiefs what there dept. policy's were.However I would still like to know. The policy I spoke about is posted at our hall and will go into effect Jan. 1st 2004 and is not in effect yet. As far as not being notified about anything the policy will be brought up and delt with at a public meeting and then be put into the forthcomming dept sog's . I am not exactly sure what the state says about speed but to my last recolection the state says greater speed than is reasonable or prudent under the conditions Penna.law 3327 sub a1 it also states it does not discharge the responsability of the driver of a response vehicle if anything (god forbid)should happen If I stepped on any toes I apoligize for it.
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atpd2
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Post by atpd2 on Nov 30, 2003 22:38:02 GMT -5
Wow! Why is it common sense driving issues occupy so much space in our forum. ( WHY, WHY, WHY). This is all a no brainer. You can't help anyone if you don't get there, and if you don't get there because of a wreck, you've compounded the probelm.
In my company, "tree down" calls and transfers are specifically addressed as non-emergency calls (ie, no reds, blues etc.) We'll never achieve "professional" status in the public eye with actions like this. Every time you use your lights and/or sirens, you draw attention to yourself (that's what they are intended to do) but the public views your speed as faster than it really is and your driving more reckless than it really is.
As far as activation of tones making the call an emergency, that's BS. The nature of the call determines if it is an emergency or not. Here is the pertinant Vehicle Code Section:
Text ยง3105. Drivers of emergency vehicles. (a) General rule. - The driver of an emergency vehicle, when responding to an emergency call or when in the pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law or when responding to but not upon returning from a fire alarm or other emergency call, may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions stated in this section. (b) Exercise of special privileges. - The driver of an emergency vehicle may: (1) Park or stand, irrespective of the provisions of this part. (2) Proceed past a red signal indication or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation, except as provided in subsection (d). (3) Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as the driver does not endanger life or property, except as provided in subsection (d). (4) Disregard regulations governing direction of movement, or overtaking vehicles or turning in specified directions. (c) Audible and visual signals required. - The privileges granted in this section to an emergency vehicle shall apply only when the vehicle is making use of an audible signal and visual signals meeting the requirements and standards set forth in regulations adopted by the department, except that an emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle need not be equipped with or display the visual signals. An ambulance which is transporting a patient may use either the lights or the audible warning system, or both, as determined by the driver of the ambulance. (d) Ambulances, blood delivery vehicles and human organ delivery vehicles. - The driver of an ambulance, blood delivery vehicle or human organ delivery vehicle shall comply with maximum speed limits, red signal indications and stop signs. After ascertaining that the ambulance, blood delivery vehicle or human organ delivery vehicle will be given the right-of-way, the driver may proceed through a red signal indication or stop sign. (e) Exercise of care. - This section does not relieve the driver of an emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons. (f) Pedalcycles. - No part of this section shall be construed to restrict the operation of a pedalcycle used by a police officer during the course of performing official duties. (g) Emergency vehicle preemption devices. - (1) The department may promulgate regulations for the operation and use of preemptive traffic devices by emergency vehicles. (2) An individual other than authorized emergency personnel who operates or uses a preemptive traffic device commits a misdemeanor of the third degree. (3) The possession of a preemptive traffic device by an individual who is not an authorized user of the device is prohibited. The device if in the possession of a nonauthorized user shall be deemed contraband and shall be seized by a law enforcement officer. (Chgd. by L.2001, Act 75(4), eff. 8/25/2001.)
Any policy determined by the Chief's Association will not circumvent the Vehicle Code. With that in mind however, it might not be a bad idea for the Chief's to recommend a standard dispatch protocol and response for these service type calls that we all answer. I good tight set of response guidelines might even help you out with your insurance company.
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Valley6
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One of the Valley's Blue Smurfs
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Post by Valley6 on Dec 1, 2003 19:35:33 GMT -5
Thanks Keith for putting that out... Now can anyone tell me the PA.Regs on mounting lights on POV's ?
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