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Post by EMSBrat on Jan 28, 2004 12:34:13 GMT -5
I got a real kick out of the folks who criticized EMS over their use of discretion when it comes to red lights and sirens. I find that funny, coming from the same guys who will race to a BS call, putting potentially hundreds of motorists and pedestrians at unnecassary risk, just cause they want to get on scene a whole 10 seconds sooner. Anyway, I' like to remind everyone of the blue light laws, since a good 75% of all blue lighters either have illegal equipment, or are running the light illegally. I'll point out some of the problems I see in this area: - Blue lighters may have no more than 2 sources of light in any direction (yes, that means full sized bars and most mini strobe bars are illegal for blue lighters) - No white lights can be used by a blue lighter, including wigwags and headlight/taillight/turnsignal strobes. - Light must have a completely un-obstructed 360 degree field of vision. - Blue lighters may not go through a red light (even if all 4 directions are stopped), ride the center turning lane, pass on a double yellow line, speed, or go the wrong way on a one way street.
The worst part about it is that the whackers who are breaking these laws are usually the ones who get on scene, stand around with their thumbs up their asses, and get in the way of the folks who are doing their jobs ...often because they're not certified to do anything at all. I won't point out any specific station, but I'm mostly referring to the area of Towanda, Wysox, Monroeton, and Franklindale. I'm not trying to start an argument either. I'm just pointing out that there are laws that are open for situational interpretation, and there are laws that aren't.
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Post by MonroetonTwo on Jan 28, 2004 21:46:13 GMT -5
EMSBrat..........Thanks for YOUR opinion
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Post by 2Truck on Jan 28, 2004 23:08:50 GMT -5
My it seems someone is a little upset , it's easy to criticize when you hide behind a name. Is there a problem with blue lights? Probobly, but the same thing that Brat talks about happens everywhere in the state. The only way to solve the problem is to take them all away. But we all know that will never happen. Tim please don't let this turn into another centralpafire bashing board.
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Post by EMSBrat on Jan 29, 2004 9:58:37 GMT -5
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Post by strangeone on Jan 29, 2004 10:10:45 GMT -5
Brat I suggest you have trooper Bob come and enlighten your group or any group on the do's and don'ts ,we had him in Monroeton and he did us a super good job of explaining the do' and don'ts. But as was stated earlier USE COMMON SENSE with any type of light.
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Post by TheFenceJumper1 on Jan 29, 2004 11:41:55 GMT -5
Brat,
You have made some real good poit's, 23Truck is right, law's are broken pretty much every time you drive with or with out a light on all over the state. Unfortinetly for I think for trooper bob, there come's a problem with the way you distingush a blue light, and a bar light. I't all depend's on the officer and if he's had a good day.
I have spoke to quite a few local officer's, state trooper's ,and officer's that are in the center of the state. Everybody has given me different awnser's of the blue light law's.
Some have said, only two rotating light's that spin 360 degree's or four, where as two flash front and two flash rear. But what about the 360? Other's have showed me in "the traffic book" where the abouve is stated and have told me that you may have three rotater's inwhich one may be white.
What about the full bar light's of 12 strob's flashers and all that good stuff everybody and their brother dream about? What about the vision, or the new vector where you have 7 rotater's? I question this because I run a vision bar ,and because the williamsport SP's agree with the two blue light rotating 360, but when asked about the vision's that they run, they were just conserded a bar light with a combination of rotater's, no problem that I was made aware of.
Who's right, who's wrong, I'm certanly not going to argue with the officer! However they need to have one-standard book they read from, not different book's with different deffinition's of the traffic law's.
What about the red lighter's that drive like hell (I include fire truck's as well in this) some time's as well. What put the cap on their speed? I'v been told quot, "as long as the vehicle is under control" end quot. In my opinion you can not drive your vehile at a fast rate of speed and still have control. What would happen if the paperboy ran his bycle out in front of you. Before I go too fare I know it can happen to a blue light as well.
Some body made good point a while ago, us whether EMS of Fire/Rescue personnel just need to learn to be more care full and YOUSE OUR HEAD's, my self included.
Can't wait for the feed back on this!!
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Post by PSPFIREMARSHAL on Jan 29, 2004 14:45:21 GMT -5
"Unfortunetaly for I think for trooper bob, there come's a problem with the way you distingush a blue light, and a bar light. I't all depend's on the officer and if he's had a good day."
There is a set standard for light and it is written in black and white, there is no discretion in the law. however, officers will use there discretion when dealing with them. If we went by the the law, a lot of people would be in violation. It is also diffirent if you are running a blue light or red lights.
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3unit2
Junior Member
Posts: 24
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Post by 3unit2 on Jan 29, 2004 16:12:49 GMT -5
PSPFIREMARSHAL, I have some questions. You wrote, 1.(If we went by the the law, a lot of people would be in violation.) How or why would we be in violation? 2. The law says,(one motor vehicle with no more than two flashing or revolving blue lights.) Define two revolving blue lights? Does this mean no more than 2 say,( Dash Lasers,which are a single rotater light?) Or no more than 2, Whelen Responders, that would have 2 rotators per light? Either way you would have no more than (two revolving blue lights).
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Post by firedude on Jan 29, 2004 16:51:35 GMT -5
alls i gotta say is have trooper bob come and give you all the class. ;D it was excellant. ;D
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Post by TheFenceJumper1 on Jan 29, 2004 17:23:50 GMT -5
PSPFIREMARSHAL,
I dont know trooper bob's definition of the blue light law's, nor do I want him to see my car, but I do agree blue lighter's get away with alot more than we should. Are you saying that you dont brake law's either. How ever so do red lighter's get away with stuff as well. I also think that if the interpertation's of these law's are different for many peopleand the officer's are also very generouse to every body with a light. I hate to say it but the book's that I've seen arn't black and white; when one say's one thing and the other contradicts it. There's a problem some where.
And 3unit2, to help awnser a question, the light's "have to be visible 360 degree's."
Maybe I otta go to law school!
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Post by dupont1 on Jan 29, 2004 17:49:50 GMT -5
Well here is a portion of the statute taken from the PA code. The web address is www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter173/chap173toc.html. My understanding and also from my dealings with the troopers is if you don't act like and ass, you follow the speed laws they don't mess with you about the lights. You need to remember if we tried to keep the laws updated with the improvements with the light bar technology then we would always be changing the law. You know that ain't gonna happen. TITLE 67 TRANSPORTATION Chapter 173. Flashing or Revolving Lights on Emergency and Authorized Vehicles Light-bar assembly—A device designed and constructed to provide and display more than one steady burning, flashing or revolving beam of light. Revolving light—A light designed to give the appearance of flashing by its rotation around a fixed axis through a 360° arc, on a horizontal plane. (3) Blue lights. Under 75 Pa.C.S. § 4572(a) (relating to visual signals on authorized vehicles), ambulance personnel, owners and handlers of dogs used in tracking humans, and volunteer firefighters may each equip one personal vehicle with no more than two flashing or revolving blue lights or one light-bar assembly containing no more than two blue lights. Only blue lights may be used on the light-bar assembly. See Figure 3.1. If you go to the web page you can also pull up figure 3.1 Another thing that is good if you go to the browse swction of the code you can look up other items in the PA code. Items such as requirements for emergency vehicle operators, Use of red and blue lights, designation of emergency vehicles. As a last note I know that if we all were truthful , at one time or another we all have put the pedal to the metal on our way to a call. I admit I have but hopefully I'm older and wiser. But this is all only my opinion.
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Post by PSPFIREMARSHAL on Jan 29, 2004 21:07:46 GMT -5
The light laws are spelled out in title 75 and title 67. I don't see where they contradict one another. Usually, no police officer will give any firefighter any problem, we do have to co-exist ;D. However, when complaints are made, they must be confronted. As everyone knows, people will female dog if their ice cream is cold. when I commented on blue lights and red lights it did not mean breaking the law, it meant they have authority to run other items as well, ie headlight flashers, grille lights, white lights. it had nothing to do with breaking the law.
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Post by chief322 on Jan 29, 2004 21:12:26 GMT -5
Did you all not see the announcement about Trooper McKee's presentation about this subject in the Training Academy section? This was open to all responders in the county with the same type of questions that are being posted now. There are two very active members of this board who are extremely knowledgable on this subject. I would suggest contacting them via PM and discuss your concerns, comments, interpretation of the law. And to re-iterate what has already been posted, if Trooper McKee would put on another presentation, I would recommend attending. Tim
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Post by TheFenceJumper1 on Jan 29, 2004 21:26:34 GMT -5
I'll make time if he'll put another one on sometime, why not Imake time for every thing else!
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Post by EMSBrat on Jan 30, 2004 10:53:11 GMT -5
I fully agree with how most everyone feels ...as long as you're not acting like an ass, there aren't too many people who are gonna give you a problem if you have a few too many strobes or rotators on your bar.
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