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Post by CMTMedic on Jan 17, 2005 18:59:22 GMT -5
Listening to the airwaves this evening I heard a scary senario playing out. A service was called to an "unknown medical". They were advised that PSP were responding and had stated that the incident had started as a domestic. THE SCENE WAS NOT SECURE! Several units then approached the scene and were able to see the residence and the occupants that were emerging from it (according to the reports to dispatch). Why were these responders so close? What is the benefit to any potential patients if these responders become involved and become victims? This is the 2nd scene in 3 days that this has occured at.
As responders we need to put our safety first. If a scene is not secure do not approach. Staying at the end of the driveway in sight of the house is not the best staging location. We are not all police officers with the training and experience to handle such situations as safely as possible. Long story short, STAY BACK and wait for the people who are trained to handle such situations to do so.
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Post by 911wacker on Jan 17, 2005 22:04:00 GMT -5
Well Medic 44, I would have to agree with part of your post, but a few things happened leading up to the responders being at risk. - On the intial dispatch, the responding units were not advised that it was an unsecured scene, they were told it was an “unknown medical and PSP were responding”. They were never advised on the initial dispatch to stage or that the scene was unsecure. Only after a field unit called responding and asked dispatch was it announced that the scene was not secure. This should have been addressed upon dispatching of the units, so why wasn’t it? - Secondly, the field units in their infinant or not so infinant wisdom decided they were going to stage in sight of the residence. They placed themselves in danger, even after they had knowledge of a potentially hazardous situation. I’m sure there are several sutable locations close enough from the scene to stage without putting themselves in danger, like the nearest intersection to the residence, that is not visible from the scene!! This situation could possibly have been avoided, had Bradford County advised units upon dispatch of a staging location such as their ambulance garage, then moved them in closer when PSP arrived. We all know it takes PSP at least 15 minutes to respond that distance on most of these situations, if not longer. These sort of situations occur way to often, maybe someday the EMS council or somebody with power will adopt a policy dictating a standard procedure for these types of situations. Fortunatly this time, nothing bad occurred but what might happen next time?? And by the way, Cudos to Paramedic Cledus from Greater Valley for staging even after the on scene units advised it was “ok”. His decision to wait for PSP was a good one, or at least that’s my opinion.
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Post by canton1 on Jan 17, 2005 23:24:06 GMT -5
Mr. Stermer....... Will the "protocols" help that. We have them now and how many times in "ALL HONESTY" to you see them being followed?? ie: RESPONSE PROTOCOLS
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Post by canton1 on Jan 17, 2005 23:36:18 GMT -5
Would the part of "PSP ARE RESPONDING" not given part of it away. They dont respond to just anything The part about where to stage is Partly correct in my opinion. I think if it was that bad and the wait was going to be that long then maybe it shoul dhave been paged as a crew assembly at the garage and call in for details. The EMS CORP should decide where they are going to stage. It is in no way the CENTERS job to tell you where to stage. Speaking even a little deeper into it. What do you do if the ETA is a really long time?? Is it right for the patient to lay there and maybe die as apposed to getting another police agency respond to the scene to assist. I know that it is PSP area but what ever happened to all the other police out there or are we/they to much into themselves to ask for help. I would bet that Chemung or Tioga Co NY could have had a police agency there as fast or faster!!! Dont you just hate those "LINES"
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Post by Chris VanDruff on Jan 18, 2005 0:02:51 GMT -5
Allow me if I may to comment from first hand knowledge we all know who was involved so I will pull no punches. I was embarrassed and disgusted with the whole scenario. I had flagrant disregard from the top man right down to the lowest FR as far as Im concerned the micu unit was the only one who acted appropriately on that scene. after the incident tech 1 said he thought everyone did a great job I totally disagreed and stated such. He wsa wrong unit one who pulled in the driveway was wrong and the first responder was wrong. And yes I screwed up too when the one kid came his sister said he was the violent one I took her word and entered the scene to check on the mother who was a recent surgery pt and the 3 small children that were still in the house. YEP I F d up Thank god everything was ok and I got to come home and see my family and talk to you guys about. we get complacent we forget we whatever we do it happens this call will be critiqued one member as far as im concerned will not be coming back thank you for not getting all grandiose on us it could happen anywhere in the county state and country. thats why we are here . again Valley MICU great job hopefully with some training and some critiquing it wont happen again. I can say we have had 2 unsafe scenes here this week alone niether one was that great so we will be working on it thaks everyone for being here .
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cledus
Full Member
the unknown medic
Posts: 37
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Post by cledus on Jan 18, 2005 6:41:11 GMT -5
I had to wait to respond to this one. Tech 2 was way out of line staging at the bottom of the drive way. I listened to her talking on the radio, and keep shouting at it, for her to get off the scene. When I hear scene un secure I was trained to stage away, not at the end of the driveway. I also blame 9 tech 1 it is his scene it is his call and he should have told them to get off the scene. When two people are walking twords you with there backs turned and there hands raised that tells me theyu have played the game befor. when the lights at the house turn out that tells me that some one dose not want to be seen. and when an the people involved can walk to your ambulance you are to close
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Post by valleytech36 on Jan 18, 2005 7:26:08 GMT -5
Pennsylvania Statewide Basic Life Support Protocols
102 - Scene Safety
[ftp]http://www.dsf.health.state.pa.us/health/lib/health/ems/bls_protocols_2004.pdf[/ftp]
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cledus
Full Member
the unknown medic
Posts: 37
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Post by cledus on Jan 18, 2005 8:43:48 GMT -5
I almost forgot, Chris what would make you even consider entering the building? Why you should know better if PSP ic coming it is a crime scene, and all you do by entering is mess up evedence. should I remind everyone of a medic who picked up shells at a shooting and the trouble that caused. I for one am very dissapointed in the crew involved, I had hoped that we as a county could rely on our profesional training to stop and protect our selfs we all know that this could have turned out very bad.
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Post by Medic13 on Jan 18, 2005 13:41:17 GMT -5
I completely agree with everyone else that the safety issue was not done correctly (judging by what I heard on the radio). Not only was it against protocol, but it was against common sense. What was the FIRST thing we had to remember during each and every practice scenario in every EMT class?? Remember those two things you had to say, or you automatically fail? It's that way for a reason. If I remember correctly, county did advise that the scene was not secure before anybody actually got on scene. Even then, responders still went to the scene, and only started the botched staging attempt after at least two different responders arrived and yelled over the radio the same message that county had declared several minutes previously.
Another issue that nobody has brought up is the radio traffic. I understand that some areas don't hit the repeater all that well, but this incident was far beyond that. Too many people on the radio, too much unnecessary traffic, lots of messages were cut off by other transmissions, too many repeated messages, nobody used talk around, and nobody requested med 10 for the incident (if it even works out there...I dunno). It tied up med 9 for the entire county, and made things difficult for responders to the Windham incident to get ahold of county. I guess it just boils down to the issues mentioned in the radio traffic threads.
I give Chris a lot of respect for admitting that there were mistakes. Not to sound like a cheesy 12-step program, but recognizing the problem really is the most important part of fixing it. Lets hope his fellow responders feel the same way.
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Post by Chris VanDruff on Jan 18, 2005 15:00:02 GMT -5
I expected alot of bashing for this and am totally in agreeance with everyone. as far as radio traffic I did tell our units to go to a different frequency and also did tell tech 1 that it had already been determined an unsecure scene. He didnt listen to his own advice. It was actually tech 2 scene she staged to close right from the git. . county did their job it was unsecure they stated as such the responders on scene screwed up cledus only after I went through the scenario with my wife did I even think what I did was wrong didnt even think about. if any of you want to come sit down with us and discuss this or teach it or go through the protocals with us feel free Im afraid that just me female dogin aint gonna accomplish anything. Im gonna do my best. the other members dont think they did anything wrong. As far as going to the garage instead of the scene ya know what maybe in your world but thats not always the case here. Radio traffic is an issue that I have been trying to work on that. I am a young EMT or a new EMT I will do my best. thanks again everyone. Lets keep it constructive.
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Post by GVEMS11 on Jan 18, 2005 19:49:11 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]If you can see the house, you are TOO CLOSE![/glow] Plain and simple. Stage down the road, around the block, whichever works for your locale. If you can see them, then they can probably see you. And if they can see you and want to hurt you, you just made it a whole lot easier. Do we forget the shooter inside the Towanda structure fire a few years ago? And Montrose had the same thing after that. When that shooter ran out of ammo, he started throwing cans of food at the firefighters. More recently, we had shots fired on a fire scene in Ulster. EMS has NO business on or even near a scene that is announced (repeatedly) as being unsecure, let alone searching individuals and separating the parties involved.
I agree, Canton1. The "lines" need to GO. Or at least limitiations need to be recognized. I passed a NYSP car just outside of Wellsburg (on my way elsewhere) while that incident was going on. They could have been there just as quick, if not quicker, had they been requested. After two of these unsecured scenes within a week, I'll bet you guys (and girls) over there miss your local law enforcement.
And yes, radio traffic during that incident was a nightmare. It tied up the county, and made other incidents more difficult. Valley was on three incidents, including that one, Windham was on a crash, etc. When you are close enough to see eachother, you are close enough to use talkaround, unless you have something VITAL that the rest of the county needs to hear. And when you are out of range of a repeater, talkaround will still allow you to talk to your people. The Bradford/Susquehanna EMS Council radio matrix has FOUR channels for on scene use: Ch. 2 (Med 9 T/A), Ch. 3 (Med 10 T/A), Ch. 9 (EMS Tactical), and Ch. 8 (Med 10 Pisgah Rptr). The direct channels (2,3,9) still allow everyone to chatter to eachother, but at the same time they DON'T interfere with the rest of the county's operations.
Hopefully a lot will come out of this incident, and it will become a learning tool for a number of different things. There needs to be an effective tool for policing radio use (perhaps a committee?). Staging needs to happen more often and be done appropriately. It is the resposibility of the first unit arriving, or that of an officer if on the air. It is not the County's responsibility -- they have enough other things to worry about. We need to be more aware of our surroundings and slow down and take a deep breath once in a while. If we don't, we are going to get bit. Hard. I like my dress uniform where it is -- hanging in my closet. I don't want to wear it to pay my final respects because of something that could have been avoided.
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Post by Medic13 on Jan 18, 2005 19:55:32 GMT -5
Chris, When you're an EMT on a BLS rig, if anything bad happens, it's probably going to bite you in the butt. It doesn't matter how new or young you are, if you know something is wrong, don't hesitate to drive the point until someone takes you seriously. It's your ass.
For example: I was 18, a fairly new EMT, and a volunteer for an ambulance corp. The corp was dispatched Alpha response for a general illness in the middle of a snow storm, and I decided to respond after 3rd page yielded only two drivers and an EMT. Opon entering the rig, the driver reached over a flipped on the red lights. I poked my head up front and told him we didn't need to run the lights. The reply was something along the lines of "I'm the driver, I want to run lights, and you can't tell me what to do". Needless to say, I informed the (then) captain the next morning, who told me he'd already heard the story, and that the driver claimed I jumped in the rig, slammed the door, and started bossing everyone around. I told him I wasn't ordering anyone to do anything, and cited the vehicle code and BLS protocols on L+S use, which clearly states that an Alpha response doesn't warrant L+S, and even then, I did have the standing to tell him what mode to use. The captain agreed that I was correct, yet told the driver (and many others) behind my back that "nobody in the corp has to listen to those Memorial ****s". Great leader. Wanna know how I fixed the problem? I haven't run a call with them since, and I smile every time I hear them fail to crew. Point is: If you know something is wrong, make sure your captain and asst captain know it. If they still ignore you, they clearly don't need (or deserve) your service.
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Post by valleytech36 on Jan 19, 2005 5:11:51 GMT -5
EMS personnel should wait for law enforcement officers to secure the scene before entry. The Ridgebury Township had two unsecured scenes in a couple days, where protocols weren't followed. I and Medic 44 were on the first one with GVEMS. We arrived on the scene behind 9 Amb 1 that was about 200 to 300 feet from the residence. We then notified 9 Tech 1 that we were on the scene and ordered us and 9 Amb 1 to position us more down the road that was about 500 feet where we couldn't see the residence. 9 Tech 1 back his vehicle down the road where it was in front of the residence to the front of 9 Amb 1 and walk back up the road to in front of the residence where Ridgebury Fire Dept. was. We were cancelled by 9 Tech 1 about 45 minutes after we arrived with no police department on the scene and on the way back to the Valley, we met PSP driving south on Berwick Turnpike near the Centerville Road.
Do we need a Line of Duty death to prevent what happened this week? No, we don't need that to fix and prevent the stupidity. We all have to do is follow the policies and procedures. The next thing is to start suspending personnel that don't follow the rules and maybe someone will wake up.
I agree we need a Radio Committee in the county.
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9Wacker1
Full Member
Wacker - and proud of it!
Posts: 54
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Post by 9Wacker1 on Jan 19, 2005 10:31:04 GMT -5
If nothing else - I'll take some of the backlash with Chris. We were wrong - the whole crew (though some more wrong than others). Fortunately we've come out unscathed, but I agree, let's learn and do it better next time.
Thanks to everyone for the "spanking" - it shows you all care. I should have known better than to bring the rig in there - but I didn't think for myself. Sorry for the worry that we caused.
Chris - let's get some training done!
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Post by Valley3 on Jan 19, 2005 11:24:46 GMT -5
Isn't the purpose of this site supposed to be Information, Education and Training ? The mistakes made would be much better served if they were addressed constructively and not by naming names, pointing fingures and bashing those involved. Even though most have disclaimers that your opinions are yours alone, you still are representing your company every time you post.
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