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Post by flamethrower on Feb 26, 2006 15:25:24 GMT -5
Some other county's do this in the area. In hearing a few box alarms in the county lately where units are responding that are not on the box or being requested.
An example could be:
"Bradford county to department 15, department 25 engine & rescue, memorial EMS....Box 15-1....314 Main St Towanda Borough for reported structure fire....PD on scene with fire showing...15:10 hrs"
This might eliminate the added radio traffic and confusion during the initial response. ;D
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Post by herrick3 on Feb 26, 2006 17:48:24 GMT -5
I don't think they should have to. They already have enough going on for the usual 2 people working. I feel that each dept. should have there men and women learn the box alarms or at least have copies of them easily accessible to quickly look at before responding.
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Post by chief173 on Feb 26, 2006 18:34:00 GMT -5
Pardon me for being uninformed.. but just what is a box alarm? When I used to dispatch in Broome County, they were a pull station that sent a number to dispatch. Even with those, we always gave out the actual address along with the box number.
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Post by firefrog on Feb 26, 2006 21:04:03 GMT -5
Taht is why a copy is given out to save time and radio traiffic, all you should have to do is read,That lets the officers on scene to keep their focus on scene.
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Fire / EMS
Full Member
These words are MY opinion only, not that of my colleagues or my "Company". God Bless America!!
Posts: 44
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Post by Fire / EMS on Feb 26, 2006 21:18:50 GMT -5
Pardon me for being uninformed.. but just what is a box alarm? Don't take it to heart, some of the people who have given Box Alarms to Bradford County to be used don't know what they are! You can tell by listening to the dispatch or by trying to read one. They are supposed to have the initial Department(s), (along with what they are supposed to put on the road), all 2nd and 3rd alarm assignments, (along with what they are supposed to put on the road), and any special requests that might arise for that Box Alarm, such as releasing the plants, etc. The problem is, the ones who are in the Box Alarms, ie., Mutual Aid Companies, apparently can't read. A Chief Officer can also just request certain parts of the 2nd or 3rd alarm, ie., "County, give me a 2nd alarm tankers" I think it is a lot easier than trying to remember if the neighbors tanker is in service or not, is that engine down the road back from repairs? Especially at 2:00 in the morning when you might not have all your faculties about you. In response to wheter or not Bradford should announce what units to put on the road, NO WAY! Only if the Chief Officer requested parts of the Alarm.
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Post by 921batt on Feb 27, 2006 8:41:20 GMT -5
As the I/C I want to know who is coming to the party. I know your concerns about radio traffic. I would rather have the radio traffic up front than during the heat of battle. Knowing what companies and apparatus are coming helps me develop my action plan. I do not want to have to ask for something that is already en route (thats' unnecessary traffic). This is more important in a volunteer department than a career department. If I were a Chief responding from home you bet I want to know what all the companies that are dispatched. Guys believe me this is soooo important.
Do you guys get a hard copy from the dispatcher?
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atpd2
Full Member
Posts: 29
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Post by atpd2 on Feb 27, 2006 10:02:42 GMT -5
Its been quite a while since I posted anything, but this has always been a pet peeve of mine. There is no reason that the apparatus assignments couldn't be announced when the alarm is dispatched. It probably isn't necessary with the primary Department, but with the assisting Departments it would be of great assistance. Announcing which apparatus (or type of apparatus) would be benificial. I don't see where this would give the dispatchers anymore to do. Maybe something could be done about the amount of time it takes to send out a dispatch. There are times when there must be 7 or 8 tones being sent out (Fire and EMS combined) plus the voice announcement, then it is repeated.
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Post by herrick3 on Feb 27, 2006 10:04:26 GMT -5
As long as the compay provides the comm. center with their box alarms, we can get copies of them. They include assignments as well as maps of the company's coverage area. I would like to think that if I were I/C and asked for a certain box alarm, then I should know what should be rolling my way. That doesn't mean it necessarily is, but you won't know what's actually coming until they call in responding. Maybe I'm not quite on track here, but I 'm just throwing in my two cents.
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Post by 2Truck on Feb 27, 2006 16:49:31 GMT -5
In reference to chief173: Box alarms came about when Game-well systems were in place in cities/towns to alert the local fire departments that there was an alarm. These systems where spread out throughout the municipality for a given area. In today's world most places use the phantom box system which is very similar to the early Game-well systems in that responses are based upon the given area of the municipality which would require different resources for the given occupancies. As for announcing what is due. People don't like to change how they do things (I know I'll get some slack for that ) It's the ago old policy: it's worked fine for this long why change now. Let's be real; who is going to stop in an office and reference a box number to see exactly what is due. Most of the time a box is dropped in Bradford County it is usually something legitimate which means people are usually turning circles because they are excited. In my opinion take a few extra seconds and announce what is due to simplify things for responders, which will probably in the long run alleviate the over the air questions about what is due from each department. The American fire service 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.
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Post by GVEMS11 on Feb 27, 2006 18:38:49 GMT -5
"Reading the box" as flamethrower and others have suggested would seem to alleviate a lot of confusion and it seems that the few extra seconds that it uses on dispatch would cut down on air time in the long run. Yes, copies are given out for that purpose, so they don't have to be announced, but does everyone in the dept know the box assignments for all of your neighboring departments? A solution to this could be to post the assignments in a conspicuous location in the station (i.e. in the bays like Dept 17).
"Department 24, Dept 1 for an engine, Dept 17 for cover up, Greater Valley EMS, Box 24-xx, Wolcott Hollow Rd for the structure fire."
Shouldn't take up any significant amount of time over the current way, and the box assignment is already pulled by the dispatcher anyway. Then everyone would know what is expected/needed, and units could be speical called, or not called (Strike 2nd alarm, no tankers) as needed.
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Post by Robert Repasky on Feb 27, 2006 20:26:53 GMT -5
I hear a lot of comments about ways to cut down radio traffic, but in my opinion, one way to cut down is to quit having everyone call in to say they're responding or they are going to the station, etc... I'm talking about individuals that are not chiefs or an apparatus. The only people that should be calling into the county for response are the chief officers or the apparatus. This has been hashed around at chief's meetings in the past, and it was a struggle to get departments that have Car designators to quit calling in, but it has since cut down. If you want to be on the air just so somebody knows you're going to the station, do it on channel 2, the non-repeater channel. That way anyone else in the near vicinity will hear it, but others, especially a department that has called you for mutual-aid, won't be walked on when they are trying to give orders to other incoming apparatus. We have to police our own radio usage. How do you expect the dispatchers to change the way they are dispatching when they are answering “Anyone 17 responding to the station” or “Anyone 8 asking if they want a tanker or engine” or Anyone 9 calling Anyone 10 to ask them if they really need them to respond etc…. Think about it, if Bradford County dispatches 3 departments to a call, out of those responding departments, you have about 8 radios calling the county from each department to tell them they’re responding. If they don’t get acknowledged from the county, they call again and again. That’s at least 24 times the county has to acknowledge each caller. And 24 is a low number, in reality it happens a lot more than that. Now you have units on the scene, IC has been established and they are trying to give orders. They can’t get through because other units are still responding. God forbid they have to ask for a second alarm. Once that second alarm goes off, the air is going to be tied up for another 10 minutes. I guess what I’m trying to say is, if you don’t have something critical to say, don’t say it, consider what the Incident Commander is going through at the scene. If you’re called, answer; otherwise do your best to keep the air clear for critical communications.
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Post by FIREFIGHTER16 on Feb 28, 2006 0:54:11 GMT -5
i think in the long run it would make things alot easier on us as dispatchers, but its also the departments responsibility to know there box alarms
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Post by 911wacker on Feb 28, 2006 21:53:03 GMT -5
To my knowledge the last time the dispatching policy and procedure manual was updated, I was a dispatcher at the time. I gave my opinion on this one when I was asked, in my opinion the dispatchers should have to give the assignments for mutual aid departments. Matt Fritsch and I were the only two in favor if my memory serves me right, but I have been wrong before. This is for two reasons: 1) It will take the dispatchers about 10 seconds extra to read and announce the extra 5 or 6 words that it will take to accomplish this, not really a significant amount of time. The information is already right in front of them in an easy to read format, how do you think they know who to page in the first place. This leaves no room for feild units to "think" about it. In addition, this re-enforces memory of the primary Chief of what he will have coming at 3 am when he is half asleep. 2) Department officers and box alarms change from time to time, then consider how many different box alarms your department is due on. Its just too much information to know, even for people who have a good memory. More than a couple of departments have over 10 different box alarms, including the smallest district in the county due to "special" box's for industrial complexes, etc. In response to Roberts excessive use of radios comment:You are absolutely correct, this is and has been a problem. Bradford County 911 nor other departments have any say over it, it is up to each individual Chief to police his own department. This has improved a little in the past few years, but not enough. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Department 22 needs to look at their policy's and adjust accordingly with regards to fire police and "cars" on the radio during multi-agency responses.
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Post by 921batt on Mar 1, 2006 8:07:34 GMT -5
Another thing to look at here is the status of apparatus. Lets say engine 1 goes out of service (ours is a squirt) and they are now manning reserve 10 (no frills). Engine 1 officer notifies dispatch and they update the CAD. Engine 1 is still designated engine 1, the CAD screen shows it as E-1-10 and is printed out as such on our run ticket. From there it is announced via radio to all stations and the riding Battalions are notified by phone. Now everyone knows if you need a squirt ya gotta call engine 3. I agree with Scott about knowing all the Boxes it is entirely too much for our feeble minds to remember. Leave the dispatching to the dispatchers, just tell me what I have coming.
One of my pet peeves is radio traffic. Keep it simple! I can't stand when officers give a long winded dissertation. Come on guys we do not need to know what color the house is. Some guys just love to hear themselves talk.
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Post by strangeone on Mar 1, 2006 8:20:13 GMT -5
Scott Another hornets nest the radio system of Bradford that would be a very prolonged topic and has been discused many times on here. (I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Department 22 needs to look at their policy's and adjust accordingly) !st off dept 22 was one of the few depts that did away with car numbers several years ago when the county asked all of the depts to do the same to cut down on radio traffic,so dept 22 has NO car numbers. 2nd dept 22 has 2 fire police officers that are autherized to (respond )on the radio any others are not !And the fire police officers in charge of their people will deal with any mis use of the radio system. Dept.22 has came a long way in the past several years from old clunkers to up grades and from little or no training to at least 3 -4 bucks courses a year plus inhouse training at least twice a month.And we are moving forward more every day.Our hall is small and it is a very tight squeeze but we try,so remember when you are this way and the rednecks will show you around the hall.
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